Why not? The phrase "the way the cookie crumbles" comes to mind, so it's certainly possible in theory. Although France/Frankland did have a more centralized past, from what I remember. And France has a more Roman background, so there's more room for centralization, compared to Germany. One possible future would be that there'd be no (or later) 1066. And maybe a smaller Crusades.
I'm thinking about a possible Dark Age timeline
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Susano
Banned
Standard Susano Comment #43764: France != Frankish Empire. France is one of two sucessor states to the Frankish Empire, the other being Germany. And if at all Germany would IOTL have the better claim as sucessor, seeing how it got Charles' imperial dignity
You're forgetting the thrid successor State...Standard Susano Comment #43764: France != Frankish Empire. France is one of two sucessor states to the Frankish Empire, the other being Germany. And if at all Germany would IOTL have the better claim as sucessor, seeing how it got Charles' imperial dignity
Its just not Germany and France, but Francia, Germania, and Lorinthiga. Today known as Germany, France and the Low Countries.Susano
Banned
Double no - first, BOTH parts were called Francia (West and East, respectively).
And the Low Countries in their current form cannot claim sucession from Lotharingia. Lotharingia ended as an independant entity in 870 in the treaty of Meerseen. The two East Frankish duchies of Lotharingia were just that - Eats Frankish, an dthus ultimately German. And the Low Countries are not even on the territoriy of those two duchies. Nope, there is no continuity at all, and thus the Low Countries cannotbe seen as sucessor.
And the Low Countries in their current form cannot claim sucession from Lotharingia. Lotharingia ended as an independant entity in 870 in the treaty of Meerseen. The two East Frankish duchies of Lotharingia were just that - Eats Frankish, an dthus ultimately German. And the Low Countries are not even on the territoriy of those two duchies. Nope, there is no continuity at all, and thus the Low Countries cannotbe seen as sucessor.
Max Sinister
Banned
It shares the same name... it's hard to tell who is the successor state of Lotharingia, since it united many different people and often changed hands.
Susano
Banned
Switzerland, no. You would have a point with Italy and Burgundy - just that there is no independant Burgundy anymore, of course. The kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy were what remained of the Central Frankiish Kingdom. However, both were also conquered territories, who already had an own dientity BEFORE the Franks took them over, so I wouldnt really see them as sucessor states. France and Germany started, as nations, 843 with the Treaty of Verdun, Italy started, as a nation, earlier, with, say, the invasion of the Langobards.
And Lorraine is a sucessor to Lotharingia, but no independant, souvereign one. It descends from the two Lotharingian duchies that ended up in teh East Frankish/German kingdom, so, yeah, does not count because not independant anymore ever since, as said, Treaty of Merseen 870.
And Lorraine is a sucessor to Lotharingia, but no independant, souvereign one. It descends from the two Lotharingian duchies that ended up in teh East Frankish/German kingdom, so, yeah, does not count because not independant anymore ever since, as said, Treaty of Merseen 870.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
True, but could it separate into the real patchwork of tiny little principalities that Germany became by the 19thc? I realize that the social forces doing so will be reversed too, but does the geography favor it? Frex, would you have a Hanse? and how, without the Baltic Herring fishery? (and how would this fishery affect your ATL Germany?)
Damned interesting idea though. France with an independent Paris and Marseilles et al.
The wine trade from Gascony to England, and the trade in Bay salt from the Bay of Biscay to Northern Europe come to mind. In return, their ships bring back English wool and tin, Flemish cloth, German herring and Russian tar, wax and furs. An Atlantic trade dominated by a league of French port cities would be interesting.
Probably not much, In feudally organised states, rich fisheries were often exploited either by towns paying a tax to the king or prince claiming the waters and coast, or by local fishermen working in a 'cottage industry'. Traders then picked up the products near the site of production. I could see the 'Wend cities' (Lubeck, Rostock, Wismar) or the kingdom of Sweden as the maion beneficiaries here, with the Bay and Luneburg salt trades getting a bnigt boost. If the Wend cities don't venture as far to sea, you could even see the French develop the opposite of the 'Baienfahrt' - leave for Schonen early in the year with salt, arrive in time for the fisheries, sell the salt, return with freshly salted herring.