Was watching a PBS show on the six wives of Henry VIII last night. It got me wondering if he hadn't been so infatuated with his elder brother's fiancée (and perhaps her dowry), who else might have been the leading contenders (both foreign and domestic) for his choice of a first bride?
If not Catherine of Aragon, then who?
- Thread starter High Plains Drifter
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I know Eleanor of Austria, the daughter of Catherine's sister, Juana, was a leading contender for Henry's hand, and in fact was jilted for her aunt.
Lucie, second daughter of the lord of the manor near one of Henry's favorite hunting lodges. Her mother gave birth to 16 children, 14 of whom are still alive (one of the boys is a little slow, but he was kicked by a horse). Her sister Liz is already the mother of three in 30 months - all hale and healthy. Lucie is the beauty in a family of beauty - even the males in the family are disgustingly attractive (including the slow one). If Henry sees her.....it's gonna be Edward IV without the brother trouble.....
Yeah, I made post three up, but I can see it happening. Impulse control was an issue for those with power and these girls are good catholics and never go beyond their property without escort.....no ringy, no flingy....
PBS is inundating me with HenryVIII, watched episode 1 of Wolf Hall last night
HVIII was born in 1491 and became kingpin 1509. I would think he'd need to get married within the say the first 2 years.
I was looking at domestic candidates from the great houses and there are a slew of eligible females born up to say 1486, but then there seems to be a drought until the mid 1490s. Howards, De Veres, Percys, Staffords, Welles, etc.
I was looking at domestic candidates from the great houses and there are a slew of eligible females born up to say 1486, but then there seems to be a drought until the mid 1490s. Howards, De Veres, Percys, Staffords, Welles, etc.
I feel like Henry VII's paranoia is going to make a domestic match a little dicey. By the 1500s, Henry is in an angry, paranoid mood, and half of the people the future Henry VIII could marry are probably getting sick of the bonds and exactions. I could see Henry VII being afraid that marrying his son to a great family could lead to a revolt with his son as the figurehead.
However, if he does marry into the old Plantagenet line, he likely gets a good deal more legitimacy - and perhaps less of a reason to get quite as murder-y during the reign. I think the big X factor is whether or not Henry has a condition that makes it harder for him to sire more than one child with a wife, or whehter it was plain dumb luck.
I agree, plus, Henry VII was looking for international recognition of his family's right to the throne. There were still Yorkist pretenders among the de la Pole family. Edmund de la Pole had been locked up in the Tower after Philip of Burgundy handed him over (with the proviso that Edmund only be imprisoned and not executed - an agreement that Henry VIII did not abide by after he became king), but Richard de la Pole was still at large, and would remain so until his death in 1525 when he died at the Battle of Pavia. There were many who would use the Yorkist pretenders as a method of destabilizing England for their own gain, so Henry sought foreign allies. It was one of the chief reasons he sought Catherine as a bride for Arthur in the first place. That Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic Kings, were willing to give their youngest daughter to the Tudor heir in England was an enormous sign of support, one that many kingdoms would be hesitant to stand against. So Henry might be keen to stick to that strategy and find his new heir a wife with powerful connections throughout Europe.
Plus, Henry VII claimed the throne in the first place by right of conquest and his claims via his mother's family (despite that line having been previously barred from the throne - the ban was of dubious legality, but that's a whole different story), deliberately leaving out all official mention of his wife's Yorkist blood and claims as a daughter of Edward IV. It's one reason why he delayed marrying her after he was crowned - he wanted people to see him as King in his own right, and not just through his wife. By that mentality, the York claims did not matter, and his marrying Elizabeth of York was more about him doing right by the dead king's family than about leeching onto their own claims, so I would think that Henry would be hesitant to give any credence to Yorkist pretensions by marrying his only living son off to one of them.
And besides,his son's claim is much better than any of the other Yorkist pretenders.
Go with Lucie, she's local.
Four of six otl were local, so yeah.
I love the idea of him doing it before Dad kicked the bucket and then have to face little sister Mary with Charles Brandon pretty much like otl.
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Yeah, there aren't many Yorkist pretenders worth marrying, and the ones who might possibly be are all male.
There's also the issue of Catherine's dowry to consider as well; Henry VII really didn't want to give that up.
On the other hand, the other big reason for the delay in the remarriage was the fallout between Philip the Handsome and Ferdinand of Aragon; Henry VII had sided with the former, and after Philip died it was tough to mend fences enough to marry in time. Unfortunately Philip's own kids maybe just slightly too young to make a marriage in a hurry (the eldest daughter, Eleanor, mentioned above, was born in 1498), otherwise they would be the logical choice.
Marguerite of Angouleme is the logical French choice, but that requires Henry VII to be willing to switch sides again in the Habsburg-Valois feud.
If HVII doesn't arrange something for HVIII before his death, how much of an overriding concern would a foreign dynasty legitamizing marriage choice matter to HVIII?
If he became infatuated with a local talent who played the Anne Boleyn game with him, could he resist it?
If he became infatuated with a local talent who played the Anne Boleyn game with him, could he resist it?
Henry VII might consider switching sides in the feud, though I don't think Henry VIII would. Henry VIII really dug the old stories of English glory over the French - hence why he fought two wars against them in his reign - so I don't think he'd be keen on a French bride when he would rather regain the lost English possessions from the days of the Hundred Years' War.
As for Eleanor of Austria, yes, she was young, but I still think that many thought her a viable candidate. Henry VIII was young and healthy, and though life was fragile, they likely thought that waiting a couple of years for her to get to a safe age to be a wife and mother was a reasonable gamble. Both Henrys would know very well the story of their (grand)mother, Margaret Beaufort, and how she came to be pregnant with Henry VII. Even at a time when girls becoming mothers at fourteen/fifteen was a normal thing, many were a little horrified at how young she was when Edmund Tudor got her pregnant. So if Eleanor is on a young side (she's seven years Henry VIII's junior), Henry VIII might be willing to wait a couple of years before consummating the marriage.
Though, if Henry VII is worried about the succession, he might be more keen on finding a bride that could start churning out babies sooner rather than later, so you make a good point.
I don't know if Henry would fall for that at this age. He's young, and given that his father kept him under lock and key for much of his teenage years, he's probably not had much experience with women and them falling over themselves to be with him yet, so if there's the occasional woman who doesn't appear interested, he'd probably move on. Anne's ploy was used on an older Henry, who was used to women tripping over themselves to fall into bed with him, and who was also madly desperate for an heir. At a younger age, Henry thinks he has all the time in the world to father a son and it's not an enormous concern for him yet.
So Henry might be more keen on a foreign marriage to further England on the international stage - and possibly gain allies for him to hopefully go to war with France at some point. Henry was all about war and glory at that age, perhaps more than he was about marrying and having babies.
Deleted member 96349
There was no ploy. Anne Boleyn was what we would call today sexually harassed.
She left court, she refused to answer Henry's letters, she did what she could to turn down her monarch without offending him.
There was simply no way for her to know that HVIII would leave CoA for her, so I don't think there was any ulterior motive in her refusals.
Good point. I've watched so many versions of the story that one tends to get stuck on the idea that Thomas Boleyn and Norfolk dangled Anne out in front of Henry like a worm on a hook.
Deleted member 96349
Thomas Boleyn was actually described as a "very timid" man. Chapuys claims Norfolk said that TB was trying to keep Henry VIII from marrying Anne, that if it was not for TB and Norfolk, HVIII and AB would have married earlier.
It's also theorised that Mary sleeping with the King was why Thomas and Elizabeth distanced themselves from her.
The historical Thomas Boleyn is so different from the pimp we see in so many books and movies. The man even marked the graves of his sons that died in infancy/early childhood, not even Henry VIII did that for his New Years prince.