Liu Bei was one of the kings of a kingdom during China's Three Kingdoms Period, who founded and ruled Shu-Han for a short time. No,w if he never existed to contest rule of the Chinese lands with rival warlords Tsao Tsao (founder and ruler of Tsao Wei) and Sun Chuan (founder and ruler of Dong Wu), what would've happened? Can imagine Tsao Wei would've defeated Dong Wu earlier or someone else would replace Liu Bei as the 3rd king.
If Liu Bei Never Existed
- Thread starter AlternateHistoryFan
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PhilippeO
Banned
Liu Yan and Liu Zhang already held Yi Province and might survive as third kingdom.
succession of Liu Biao territory would be important in the absence of Liu Bei, did Liu Biao successor surrendered to Cao Cao ? thus strengthening Cao forces against Wu. can Wu perform good enough against Cao forces, and recapture Liu Biao territory ?
butterfly would be disastrous in this, period during and after Dong Zhuo is very chaotic with numerous battle, Cao and Sun family might not emerge entirely because of butterfly.
succession of Liu Biao territory would be important in the absence of Liu Bei, did Liu Biao successor surrendered to Cao Cao ? thus strengthening Cao forces against Wu. can Wu perform good enough against Cao forces, and recapture Liu Biao territory ?
butterfly would be disastrous in this, period during and after Dong Zhuo is very chaotic with numerous battle, Cao and Sun family might not emerge entirely because of butterfly.
Cao Cao would conquer all of Former Hans Territory and the Cao clan would never have been uprooted by the Sima Clan.
The lack of fighting that would have happened otherwise would have resulted in a more powerful state at the end of the Period making Cao Wei more powerful than Sima Jin, perhaps lasting longer
The lack of fighting that would have happened otherwise would have resulted in a more powerful state at the end of the Period making Cao Wei more powerful than Sima Jin, perhaps lasting longer
Or not.Cao Cao's son basically opened a pandora's box by usurping the throne.There will probably be more usurpations for the time to come. It doesn't change the fact that it shows you can get away with usurping the throne.Add to the fact that the Caos have really little legitimacy,not to mention the Caos distrusted members of their own family to give them significant authority to preempt coups,the country might be quite shaky politically.
Nice assessment of the Cao family's hold on power in the long term, darthfanta.
I know this is a minor point compared to all the other butterflies and knock on effects, but Chinese literary and popular culture is going to be very different without Romance of The Three Kingdoms. It's going to be a large gap that'll take a lot of filling and Religion will be slightly different without Guan Yu providing an example as he was.
Having him never exist is a tricky question. If we take him out of the equation before Chibi, however, I think we might see results begin to emerge.
The problem with assuming Cao Cao taking China is that it neglects the fact that Wu is still around. The Battle of the Red Cliffs was mostly fought, and strategised by, Wu with figures like Zhou Yu and Lu Su behind the fire attack and Huang Gai in the actual fire-ship itself without much assistance from Shu. The collapse of Wei's position in Jing Province will be OTL, the main difference being that Wu will be the ones to take the areas that Shu held IOTL and thus hold far more of Jing. Having that foothold would make Zhou Yu's proposed invasion of Yi Province a lot easier as well, and actually viable without Liu Bei refusing to allow Wu crossings on account of familial ties with Liu Zhang (his actual motive being to take it for himself) and the latter's regime is unlikely to be any more stable than it was IOTL.
Add on the officers under Liu Biao who joined Liu Bei from the former's death to the latter's establishing himself in Jing going to Wu instead and you have a formidable opponent to the South of Wei. Instead of the Era of Three Kingdoms we have the Era of the Two Kingdoms. Both sides have defensible terrain, firmly established forts, and skilled officers to throw at one another. It'd be a cold war with a series of proxy battles, each side hoping to wear down the other until they break and they can rule the land.
The survivability of each state relies on whether butterflies help them. Yong Kai's rebellion against Shu IOTL failed after he was assassinated by a fearful Nanman tribe chief, but he might be facing officers with more military skill than Zhuge Liang ITTL such as Wei Yan, Lu Meng, and so on. Both kingdoms would soon face issues over the next few decades. If Sun Deng manages to survive his illness ITTL then we avoid the Crown Prince Affair and the later civil feuds and chaos that destroyed Wu from within. If Cao Rui survives long enough to either A) influence Cao Fang towards a better character than OTL or B) replace him with Cao Mao or someone else more gifted, then we might be able to see the Cao consolidate their hold over Wei.
Of course, if either happens then the other kingdom will be more able to launch an invasion. It's hard to say. Then we have the other issue of potentially no Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or a viable counterpart to it ITTL, which causes enough butterflies that it's very difficult to ascertain what might change and what might not, especially when adding the wider butterflies from a longer-lasting Cao dynasty or Kingdom of Wu.
The problem with assuming Cao Cao taking China is that it neglects the fact that Wu is still around. The Battle of the Red Cliffs was mostly fought, and strategised by, Wu with figures like Zhou Yu and Lu Su behind the fire attack and Huang Gai in the actual fire-ship itself without much assistance from Shu. The collapse of Wei's position in Jing Province will be OTL, the main difference being that Wu will be the ones to take the areas that Shu held IOTL and thus hold far more of Jing. Having that foothold would make Zhou Yu's proposed invasion of Yi Province a lot easier as well, and actually viable without Liu Bei refusing to allow Wu crossings on account of familial ties with Liu Zhang (his actual motive being to take it for himself) and the latter's regime is unlikely to be any more stable than it was IOTL.
Add on the officers under Liu Biao who joined Liu Bei from the former's death to the latter's establishing himself in Jing going to Wu instead and you have a formidable opponent to the South of Wei. Instead of the Era of Three Kingdoms we have the Era of the Two Kingdoms. Both sides have defensible terrain, firmly established forts, and skilled officers to throw at one another. It'd be a cold war with a series of proxy battles, each side hoping to wear down the other until they break and they can rule the land.
The survivability of each state relies on whether butterflies help them. Yong Kai's rebellion against Shu IOTL failed after he was assassinated by a fearful Nanman tribe chief, but he might be facing officers with more military skill than Zhuge Liang ITTL such as Wei Yan, Lu Meng, and so on. Both kingdoms would soon face issues over the next few decades. If Sun Deng manages to survive his illness ITTL then we avoid the Crown Prince Affair and the later civil feuds and chaos that destroyed Wu from within. If Cao Rui survives long enough to either A) influence Cao Fang towards a better character than OTL or B) replace him with Cao Mao or someone else more gifted, then we might be able to see the Cao consolidate their hold over Wei.
Of course, if either happens then the other kingdom will be more able to launch an invasion. It's hard to say. Then we have the other issue of potentially no Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or a viable counterpart to it ITTL, which causes enough butterflies that it's very difficult to ascertain what might change and what might not, especially when adding the wider butterflies from a longer-lasting Cao dynasty or Kingdom of Wu.