Iberian Peninsula Alternate History

Lleibi

Yes, as i thought, it largely depends on the maps, but i'm fairly sure that Galicia didn't have Coimbra in 1037. I found this map that fits a lot more with what i knew (which can be mistaken in any case):
http://mapas.owje.com/img/Espana-entre-910-y-1492-4063.jpg

Theseus, in your last map, i'm almost afraid to ask :D did you imagine any particular time to make a PoD that would produce that map... it was already commented, but the denomination of the different countries of Spain are easily what makes it less believable.
Regarding the borders, they are fine in the sense that they fit with the provinces, but there's one detail: provinces were a creation of the ministers during the Enlightenment, often caring little for the actual borders of the old kingdoms, like Galicia, Leon, Aragon, Valencia...

Without enlightenment it's very likely the borders of the independent territories you are imagining would not fit with the provinces. An added difficulty is that most "modern" maps of eras pre-enlightenment use the borders of the provinces for the border of the old kingdoms... so getting the real info is difficult... you need to check older maps that are very much distorted (due to cartographic rules), or dig up for modern ones with more reliable borders.

For exmple:
http://www.swaen.com/zoomamo.php?id=6998 (zoomable, you can even check the municipalities that make up the borders)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yGpz3Q5FBj8/TRnatML6duI/AAAAAAAAHqY/xMS1-B9QJPE/s1600/spain.jpg (entirely unsure of why Galicia and Portugal are united here...)

An important effect of how far back you push the PoD is that NW-Extremadura can be part of Leon or not.

So, use that as you will, in your fantasy, and have fun :)
 

TheseusDeuteros

jotabe1789 said:
Yes, as i thought, it largely depends on the maps, but i'm fairly sure that Galicia didn't have Coimbra in 1037. I found this map that fits a lot more with what i knew (which can be mistaken in any case):
http://mapas.owje.com/img/Espana-entre-910-y-1492-4063.jpg

Theseus, in your last map, i'm almost afraid to ask :D did you imagine any particular time to make a PoD that would produce that map... it was already commented, but the denomination of the different countries of Spain are easily what makes it less believable.
Regarding the borders, they are fine in the sense that they fit with the provinces, but there's one detail: provinces were a creation of the ministers during the Enlightenment, often caring little for the actual borders of the old kingdoms, like Galicia, Leon, Aragon, Valencia...

Without enlightenment it's very likely the borders of the independent territories you are imagining would not fit with the provinces. An added difficulty is that most "modern" maps of eras pre-enlightenment use the borders of the provinces for the border of the old kingdoms... so getting the real info is difficult... you need to check older maps that are very much distorted (due to cartographic rules), or dig up for modern ones with more reliable borders.

For exmple:
http://www.swaen.com/zoomamo.php?id=6998 (zoomable, you can even check the municipalities that make up the borders)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yGpz3Q5FBj8/TRnatML6duI/AAAAAAAAHqY/xMS1-B9QJPE/s1600/spain.jpg (entirely unsure of why Galicia and Portugal are united here...)

An important effect of how far back you push the PoD is that NW-Extremadura can be part of Leon or not.

So, use that as you will, in your fantasy, and have fun :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for all information.
Haven't yet had the time for thinking about a plausible timeline, but I hope I'll find the time to do so soon... and the thing about the modern provinces etc.; that really may be a problem for me, but I'll find something about it.
Besides, my countries quite resemble with those in your zoomable map... Only Extremedura is a 'problem'.
 

Lleibi

Yes, history-wise, the existence of Extremadura as a differentiated region of Castille, and not just part of New Castille (contraposed to the northren Old Castille) it has to do with political alliances between the cities in the Spanish Courts.

From the spanish wikipedia page of Extremadura:
"In 1653, the city of Plasencia attempts to recover the vote in the Court that it had had during the middle ages, by buying it for 80,000 ducados. To do this, it proposes to the cities of Badajoz, Mérida and Trujillo, and the towns of Cáceres and Alcántara, an alliance to afford this vote together, and hence conform the province of Extremadura. It's in this moment that Extremadura appears as a political entity."
This happens in the frame of the after-war of 1640, when, with Portugal independence, the territory of Extremadura becomes frontier again. Otherwise, Extremadura was not really homogeneous, because it had been repopulated by both leoneses and castillians, depending on the area, each with their own languages (and even some small areas with Galicians, which is amusing, as some valleys in Extremadura still kept Galician as their language till a few decades ago).
 

Lleibi

TheseusDeuteros said:
Yes, that's true, but I have no idea how to do that without ruining other states.
Click to expand...

I disagree that Leon really needs sea access. Leon soon became a plateau nation, and Asturias, although almost sharing language, evolved a much different personality.

Castille, on the other hand, soon developed a powerful navy, despite being a plateau nation, mostly due to the need to stablish trade routes for the wool and wool cloths. To give Castille a sea port, there are 2 routes, i think:

-Give up on Cantabria or Murcia. From these two, i'd go with Murcia, they have way less political entity. After all, you are already giving Albacete to Castille, which was half of the historical region of Murcia. While the Cantabros feel very much castillian, they also feel highlanders, they call themselves "mountain people". From a nobiliar point of view, Cantabria was a land of "hidalgos", because like the basque, they had never been indentured to land lords.

-Give "Lower Andalussia" to Castille: Historically, geographically and economically, Andalussia is split in 2: Lower Andalussia that is dominated by the Guadalquivir river's basin, and Higher Andalussia, dominated by the Baetic Mountains. There are two main ways to identify these two halves: either you make Higher Andalussia to correspond roughly with the old muslim kingdom of Granada, and the rest be Lower, or you can take the provinces of Seville, Cordoba, Cadiz and Huelva, as Lower and the rest is Higher.
This partitioning makes a lot of sense: after the discovery of America, Seville became the center of the trade with the ultramaritime territories, and in fact, it became the cultural center of Castille. Also, until the final expulsion of the moriscos (XVII century), Higher Andalussia had muslim presence, which Lower Andalussia had lost around the XIII century.

Both options are mutually compatible, up to you :) you'll see what fits better with what you have in mind.
 
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