I know I'm risking unleashing the hordes of hell

Superaquaspiderbatman · Dec 15, 2012

but I need to ask, and you'll have to forgive the newbie for not knowing what everyone here seems to know

Why is it, that everyone is so convinced that a German invasion of the UK during WW2 couldn't succeed under any circumstance? As far as I remember, it was considered a genuine possibility in Britain at the time?

Ian Hathaway · Dec 15, 2012

Superaquaspiderbatman said:
but I need to ask, and you'll have to forgive the newbie for not knowing what everyone here seems to know

Why is it, that everyone is so convinced that a German invasion of the UK during WW2 couldn't succeed under any circumstance? As far as I remember, it was considered a genuine possibility in Britain at the time?

Not everyone is convinced it is impossible

Crimea · Dec 15, 2012

I'm not sure if it's a matter of 'any German invasion would fail', but certainly one of 'Operation Sealion would fail' - the plan, as far as I can tell, was flawed in many respects. Of course, this isn't to say that a revised invasion plan, or waiting a few years to build up the war materiel and to neutralise the Royal Navy, would still lead to a Nazi failure.

Axeman · Dec 15, 2012

1 - The Royal Navy.

Supplying a cross channel invasion would be intercept able by the royal navy, which vastly outguns, outpaces, and outnumbers. the Kreigsmarine.

2- The Luffwaffe's

Not only was the Luffwaffe unable to win the Battle of Britain when it didn't have to guard German convoys heading towards Britain, but the Luffwaffe had very little if any naval-aviation experience. Everything would have to be ad-hoc against the Royal Navy, which had spent much of the post-munich pact modernizing its battleships and cruisers for AA abilities.

3 - German logistics and the Kreigsmarine

The German plans OTL involved the use of River Barges to not only land but resupply the troops along with whatever ad-hoc ships they could scrap together. Not to mention there were just so few of them that it would have been like dropping an ice cube into a furnace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion#Landing_craft

To overcome this the Germans have to sacrifice somewhere. More landing ships or better naval-aviation means less tanks or close air support, etc...

Oh, then there is the British Army waiting for them.

ivanotter · Dec 15, 2012

Ok, it is a good suggestion to try to divide it up a bit.

The "sea-creature-that-shall-not-be-named" would probably fail.

It might have been doen before, but let's try:

How would you build an invasion of UK in 1940?

The "trick" would be to get 1-2 panzer divisions across together with infantry. Napoleon's words of "let me be master of the channel for six hours and I will be the master of everything" --> something like that.

1) Air superiority. Necessary not only for landing but to counter RN
2) Prevent RN in getting to the landing grounds
3) Secure logistics can flow unhindered
4) Sustainable bridgehead
... and a million other things

Totally impossible? maybe not, but not without a few challenges here and there.

Ivan

yourworstnightmare · Dec 15, 2012

For it to succeed you need a PoD before the war that make Britain ruled by a blind donkey. Otherwise there is that little thing called the Royal Navy that makes any German attempt to invade the island impossible.

Clandango · Dec 15, 2012

I still think they should have taken a ferry in the same way they invaded Denmark.

Kongzilla · Dec 15, 2012

I heard that America was going to side with Fascist Germany if they hadn't discovered the concentration camps and what not before the War. Maybe the USN can help with the Unmentionable Seamammal To be honest I don't really trust my source when it comes to Historical matters.

If he's right just allow the concentration camps to not be seen or not be there all together. But he's probably wrong he also mentioned that without WW2 Australia would be communist.

Superaquaspiderbatman · Dec 15, 2012

Kongzilla said:
I heard that America was going to side with Fascist Germany if they hadn't discovered the concentration camps and what not before the War. Maybe the USN can help with the Unmentionable Seamammal To be honest I don't really trust my source when it comes to Historical matters.

If he's right just allow the concentration camps to not be seen or not be there all together. But he's probably wrong he also mentioned that without WW2 Australia would be communist.

Uhm....yeah, seems he did go full regard there. I don't see any way that OTL US would side with the Axis.

Alex1guy · Dec 15, 2012

Kongzilla said:
I heard that America was going to side with Fascist Germany if they hadn't discovered the concentration camps and what not before the War. Maybe the USN can help with the Unmentionable Seamammal To be honest I don't really trust my source when it comes to Historical matters.

If he's right just allow the concentration camps to not be seen or not be there all together. But he's probably wrong he also mentioned that without WW2 Australia would be communist.

Not evenly remotely true. Firstly most people had no idea of the concentration camps or just didn't believe they existed until late in the war. Second, US/Nazi relations were rubbish. It would take a very far back POD for the USA to side with Nazi Germany and invade the UK. Not sure how Australia goes Communists

Pangur · Dec 15, 2012

Kongzilla said:
I heard that America was going to side with Fascist Germany if they hadn't discovered the concentration camps and what not before the War. Maybe the USN can help with the Unmentionable Seamammal To be honest I don't really trust my source when it comes to Historical matters.

That sounds quite strange to be polite about it. The US as I understand had a president that knew that US was going to get dragged into the war and was going everything he could to support the UK. He had some support but not a great deal. The other big sentiment was one of isolationism. As far as I know the only folk who would have had a view like you suggest would have been the Nazi bund (not 100% certain about that name)

Kongzilla said:
If he's right just allow the concentration camps to not be seen or not be there all together. But he's probably wrong he also mentioned that without WW2 Australia would be communist.

That's totally of the wall. There was never anything even vaguely like the required support for communist in Aussie for that. Heck you had the great depression where whole streets were cleared in Richmond, Melbourne because folk could not the rent and guess what not red flags or even a sniff of one

Kongzilla · Dec 15, 2012

Yea I didn't believe him the dodgey bastard, I didn't think there would be any chance of Aussie Commie and a fascist America

yourworstnightmare · Dec 15, 2012

Kongzilla said:
I heard that America was going to side with Fascist Germany if they hadn't discovered the concentration camps and what not before the War. Maybe the USN can help with the Unmentionable Seamammal To be honest I don't really trust my source when it comes to Historical matters.

Where did you hear that. Source please. Sounds like utter bullshit to me.

Anaxagoras · Dec 15, 2012

yourworstnightmare said:
For it to succeed you need a PoD before the war that make Britain ruled by a blind donkey.

I smell a TL!

Pangur · Dec 15, 2012

Anaxagoras said:
I smell a TL!

'
Why does memories of Francis the talking mule come to mind?

sparky42 · Dec 15, 2012

Anaxagoras said:
I smell a TL!

There's been an attempt in the Story forum, Raid on Scapa Flow, though it's not just Donkey's the British seem to have made lobotomies a requirement for any officer rank.

In regard to the question, my view is always counter balanced by the forces of D-Day. Even accepting a lower number in the invasion force, and less prepared Beach Defences the German's still couldn't muster anything like the superiority that they would need.

Weren't a good chunk of the Germany Destroyers lost in Norway? How many ships were operational in 1940?

Kongzilla · Dec 15, 2012

yourworstnightmare said:
Where did you hear that. Source please. Sounds like utter bullshit to me.

Oh I was just talking to a guy at my wargames club, I was talking about ww2 in the 50s and he was on about how australia would be commie and america fascist. I didn't beleive him but he was just so convinced that I thought I had to ask.

Pretty stupid but I was curious.

Pangur · Dec 15, 2012

Kongzilla said:
Oh I was just talking to a guy at my wargames club, I was talking about ww2 in the 50s and he was on about how australia would be commie and america fascist. I didn't beleive him but he was just so convinced that I thought I had to ask.

Pretty stupid but I was curious.

Nothing wrong with being either curious or asking - quite the opposite actually

Willmatron · Dec 15, 2012

Could an attempted but failed Sea Lion had knocked the British out of the war, or at least slowed them down.

mowque · Dec 15, 2012

Look up D-Day and see the resources required. No way the Germans can muster that sort of effort.