Hybrid Iceland

Umbral

You know, the thread about Roman Iceland made me think of a notion that kicked around earlier. An Eskimo settlement of Iceland, with some later consequences.

I had the thought that a Dorset Inuit settlement of Iceland would do quite well. The climate is milder than Greenland, but the climate coping skills of the Inuit are still appropriate. Population increases.

(A relic, possibly refugee, Independence II culture mighgt do as well as the Dorset.)

However, the Irish monks arrive not too long after the Inuit do.

The Celtic Church embarks on a converting mission, and rather sucessfully. The Irish bring writing, christianity, domesticated animals and crops. (success of crops is more marginal).

The Inuit add survival skills to thrive in the environment, and numbers, as well as their own unique twists to culture and religon. Futher immigration from Ireland adds to the mix.

By the time the Norse arrive, in the old one ship at the time fashion, there is a vibrant hybrid population established in numbers. Probably organized around the Celtic Church, in as far as there is much organization.
 

SRT

An interesting side effect would certainly be that the Inuit would certainly know about North America. And, if they hit it off right with the Norse, they might be interested in doing a bit of cultural go-betweening (I love English, by the way) for them.

Alternatively, there might be some communication between the Iceland (or whatever its name is ITTL) Inuit and the mainland Inuit; and since the Iceland Inuit are in communication with the Irish (is this TL I-Wank or what?) this could mean that European diseases spread to North America way ahead of schedule.

Very interesting POD; you could take it great places, I think. I've never really like Super Viking Colonialism™ TLs that much because they always seemed a bit implausible, but this could be a really fascinating TL.
 

Atom

I doubt these Dorset peoples would be in contact with Greenland. Its a fair distance, which they would have a lot of difficulty crossing. There might be a few go-betweens, but not that many.

I also have a feeling that the Norse wouldn't be so nice, and they might die out, although it would make settlement for the Norse more difficult. Might increase the speed with which they get to Greenland, if they sort of know about it.

I wounder if the Inuit (when they arrive in Greenland) might cross over, already knowing that this other island exists.
 

Umbral

I don't think contact with Greenland would be regular. Perhaps the occasional "young bucks" would try a trading trip, with some surviving.

Both Irish and Inuit ship tech were vastly behind the Norse.

But when the Norse do arrive on the scene...I rather think of the Celtic/Inuit loose confederation they'll find as rather weak in terms of arms and fighting. But also poor. There should be too many people for the occasional longship to settle. They could be raided for slaves, and riches from the monastries and churches.

But I think that would result in a quick rise in the fighting spirit of the Icelandic. Might even spur some kind of organization to develop, reisisting the common enemy.

It would be cool to imagine the Norse just adding to the mix, importing ship tech and their Thing. But I think it unlikly, least there is a full-scale and successful invasion. In which case we might see something like the Norse in Normandy.
 
Petike

Petike

Now this is one of the most interesting scenarios, I've ever seen on this discussion board ! :cool: I would love to see it developed into at least a proper timeline. That would be no doubt awesome... :)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
At the very most Iceland could feed 10000 hunter-gathner a more likely number is half of that. The Irish monks came there a few decades to a century before the Vikings. So I doubt that Iceland will have a large population when the Norwegians comes, together with the fact that European diseases was every bit as deadly for the Inuits as it were for the Amerindians, I doubt this will changed much except that the Icelanders need to raid Ireland a little less for slaves
 

Cromm Crúaich

How about the monks arrive around 680, set up shop, then get attacked by the Inuits for some faux pas or another.
A few survivors make it back to Ireland, and persuade a few chieftains to help them reclaim their monastery and garrison it.

They re-establish control around the old monastery, and the warriors, fishermen, tradesmen and craftsmen that accompanied them settle down in a small village, no more than a hundred or two. Over the years, the Inuits convert to christianity, and the technological gap becomes less wide. The village grows into a town, with occasional posts along the cost, and maybe a new monastery further north or further east (assuming the 1st monastery is at Reykjavik).

Migration from ireland is sporadic, but there're several thousand Icelandic Gaels by 800 AD, and a considerable amount of the population is mixed Gaelic-Inuit. When the Norse arrive, they capture the lightly defended towns and villages with ease, but do not migrate there on the same scale as OTL, as there's more competition for the limited resources.

So, you end up with a culture with eccentric celtic-style catholicism, a Norse-descended elite, and a language resembling old irish, with a large number of norse (Comparable to the effect of French on English) and inuit (Comparable to the effect of Welsh on English; not much) words thrown in, and probably many words from latin for formal things if the monasteries survive the norse invasion.
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

Honestly, though, I don't think any Christianization is going to be successful among the Inuit - at first - unless one understands the Inuit POV. Who knows, when someone says "Blessed are the poor", because of what the Inuit are used to (including language), they could interpret that sentence as "The fish will marry you". :D
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Cromm Crúaich said:
How about the monks arrive around 680, set up shop, then get attacked by the Inuits for some faux pas or another.
A few survivors make it back to Ireland, and persuade a few chieftains to help them reclaim their monastery and garrison it.

They re-establish control around the old monastery, and the warriors, fishermen, tradesmen and craftsmen that accompanied them settle down in a small village, no more than a hundred or two. Over the years, the Inuits convert to christianity, and the technological gap becomes less wide. The village grows into a town, with occasional posts along the cost, and maybe a new monastery further north or further east (assuming the 1st monastery is at Reykjavik).

Migration from ireland is sporadic, but there're several thousand Icelandic Gaels by 800 AD, and a considerable amount of the population is mixed Gaelic-Inuit. When the Norse arrive, they capture the lightly defended towns and villages with ease, but do not migrate there on the same scale as OTL, as there's more competition for the limited resources.

So, you end up with a culture with eccentric celtic-style catholicism, a Norse-descended elite, and a language resembling old irish, with a large number of norse (Comparable to the effect of French on English) and inuit (Comparable to the effect of Welsh on English; not much) words thrown in, and probably many words from latin for formal things if the monasteries survive the norse invasion.
Click to expand...

That's close to possible, and could even happen but the primary problem is that Iceland could feed 80000 agriculturalist and there was around 10000 Norwegian settler which settled in Iceland in OTL, with that number a linguistic takeover is almost unavoidable, what you need is something to lower the numbers of settlers, the best thing could be a to put Scotland* in total chaos so the Norwegian primary invade and settled scotland instead of Iceland, maybe with a small scale invasion of Iceland by something like 2000 warrior**

*The celtic Scotland the Highland, Pictland and the Isles.

**That should be enough to take Iceland over, without a linguistic takeover.
 

Umbral

Valdemar II said:
At the very most Iceland could feed 10000 hunter-gathner a more likely number is half of that. The Irish monks came there a few decades to a century before the Vikings. So I doubt that Iceland will have a large population when the Norwegians comes, together with the fact that European diseases was every bit as deadly for the Inuits as it were for the Amerindians, I doubt this will changed much except that the Icelanders need to raid Ireland a little less for slaves
Click to expand...
Well, I think you are correct about most hunter-gatherer groups. However, I suspect that you are underestimating the Inuit a bit. They would be coming from a much harsher environment, and bring extremly highly developed coping skills. Western Greenland, with far less ecological room, were estimated to have had a population of 10 000 - 30 000 in the depths of the little ice age.
I think they could have done far better than other groups at their tech level in Iceland.

And a century gives more than sufficient time for conversions and intermarriage. A century was just as long then as it is now.

The diseases are a problem, though.

Valdemar II said:
That's close to possible, and could even happen but the primary problem is that Iceland could feed 80000 agriculturalist and there was around 10000 Norwegian settler which settled in Iceland in OTL, with that number a linguistic takeover is almost unavoidable, what you need is something to lower the numbers of settlers, the best thing could be a to put Scotland* in total chaos so the Norwegian primary invade and settled scotland instead of Iceland, maybe with a small scale invasion of Iceland by something like 2000 warrior
Click to expand...
But what were the motivation of the Norse for going to Iceland? The fact that it was empty. If it is instead filled with people who are -in their opinion- dirt poor, it shouldn't be more attractive than the Slav lands.

If the Celtic monastries have not brough gold and silver for safekeeping, there isn't much motivation for an invasion.

Hm...

It is not known when the first Inuit settlers arrived in Iceland. While it is thought that the initial number of settlers were small, numbers rapidly increased in the more suitable environment.

There are some evidence of sporadic later contact with Greenland, but it is thought unlikly that it was ever a regular thing.

Irish monks arrived in the seventh century. It is not believed that Iceland had reached its carrying capacity at the time, and the sparse population allowed them to settle in before encountering natives. Initial frictions were followed by epidemics devastating the native population, something which was interpreted as a spiritual retribution.
This gave the Christians something of a flying start to early conversion efforts. The early successes also silenced the fraction of Churchmen who belived the Inuit to be fomorians, and soulless beasts.

Epidemics continued to plague the population for generations....
 

Umbral

Having thought about it...

Iceland does appear to be somewhat closer to Greenland than it is to Scandinavia or the British Isles. How realistic is postulationg a slight improvement in the Inuits maritime abilities as a POD?

The Inuit had a fair population density for their environment, which was exceptionally marginal. If we can get even a small stream of emigration going, it will alleviate a number of the problems here, namely...

I really don't have a problem with the Inuit carrying a much greater population than other hunter-gatherers in Iceland. But.

We need the monks to arrive before the Inuit fills up the place. It is likly that it was the emptiness and lack of people trying to kill them which attracted the monks to the place. Fill it with Inuit, and they'll probably turn around on sight.

That means we can't have the Inuit arrive as a few families quite early, and then build numbers over time.

Continued immigration will also blunt the population loss to epidemics.

Perhaps the climatic catastrophe of the sixth century, the 535-536 AD volcanic eruptions could start knocking things off, weather cooling causing desperation among the Inuit?
 
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