How would the rest of Europe interact with a Christian analogue to the Ottoman Empire?

[Mr_Fanboy]

Bear with me, as there will be much convergence and handwaving in this post, but there is a point to it.

Say that world history generally and Anatolian/Balkan history specifically goes roughly the same as in our world. A branch of Oghuz Turks defeat the Byzantine Empire in a counterpart to the Battle of Manzikert in the 11th century, opening up Anatolia to Turkish settlement, and one of the successor states to these initial invaders establishes an empire in Asia Minor and the Balkans that eventually captures Constantinople... without converting to Islam. Perhaps the Seljuq leadership does not convert to Islam in the 10th century (though Wikipedia seems vague as to whether they were Christian, Jewish, Tengrist, or something else beforehand). Once a group of them are firmly established in Anatolia, they opt to convert to Nicene Christianity (though their cousins to the east will probably still become Muslim, if somewhat later than in our world). Upon taking Constantinople, the counterpart to Suleiman the Magnificant claims the title of Roman Emperor, but the Turks otherwise remain culturally distinct from the Greeks.

This is a great deal of build-up and convergence to ask how the rest of Europe would interact with what is essentially a Christian version of the Ottoman Empire. I assume that those in Western Europe would take this state's claim to be the Roman Empire about as seriously as they did the Greek claim, but they would have to acknowledge that this new empire's strength sets them apart from the ineffectual Byzantine Empire. These Ottoman counterparts would still likely be political rivals of various Italian city-states, the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Russians, and other nearby countries, but they would not be considered an existential threat to Christendom, either. How do events unfold?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Not sure how it would interact if it is rivaled with the Habsburgs, Russians and every other Italian States but it would most definitely intermarry with the Christian States in Europe, bringing them closer to Europe. Being relatives with other dynasties helps a lot.

 

[Jürgen]

The West European would take it claims to be the East Roman Empire serious, it would just not mean a lot in practice. But beside that a Orthodox Ottoman Empire would be treated pretty much like they treated Russia.

 

[Skallagrim]

Upon taking Constantinople, the counterpart to Suleiman the Magnificant claims the title of Roman Emperor, but the Turks otherwise remain culturally distinct from the Greeks.

I assume you mean the counterpart of Mehmed the Conqueror.

This is a great deal of build-up and convergence to ask how the rest of Europe would interact with what is essentially a Christian version of the Ottoman Empire. I assume that those in Western Europe would take this state's claim to be the Roman Empire about as seriously as they did the Greek claim, but they would have to acknowledge that this new empire's strength sets them apart from the ineffectual Byzantine Empire. These Ottoman counterparts would still likely be political rivals of various Italian city-states, the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Russians, and other nearby countries, but they would not be considered an existential threat to Christendom, either. How do events unfold?

These Christian Turks have been in the region for a while. If they are rivals of Constantinople, they'll hardly have antagonised the rusaders during the Fourth Crusade. As long as they make no threatening moves against the West, I think the West will just treat the Ottomans as yet another dynasty of the ERE.

As for expansion: I think that overly antagonising the West and attempting to absorb lots of Muslim Arabs both have major draw-backs. Why not expand North? The Golden horde has just collapsed, and you can beat Muscovy to the Pontic Steppe. Also try to take Armenia and the Caucasus, as "defender of the Christians" living there. Basically make the Black Sea your Mare Nostrum.


ETA:

I imagine that an alt-Ottoman Empire in the scenario I propose might end up looking something like what I've outlined in red on the map below, for instance:

 

[TheReal_McChicken]

The biggest thing to consider is do they become Orthodox Christian's like the OTL Byzantines? In OTL, Hungary was a country that christianized relatively late but went on to have one of the most zealous monarchies in Europe. I could see something similar happening to this empire, let's call it Rüm. One way that they become Christians, and also how they could be accepted in Europe, is that the Seljuks did become Muslims, and whatever Turkic tribe managed to conquer Anatolia is not friends with them. Seeking to separate themselves from the Islamic Turks, they become fervent crusaders and as a result their loyalties remain to Rome. This is definitely what makes them massive enemies of the Russians, who definitely dont want catholic steppe nomads ruling their most holy city. Hungary could easy become a strong ally of this new empire.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The biggest thing to consider is do they become Orthodox Christian's like the OTL Byzantines? In OTL, Hungary was a country that christianized relatively late but went on to have one of the most zealous monarchies in Europe. I could see something similar happening to this empire, let's call it Rüm. One way that they become Christians, and also how they could be accepted in Europe, is that the Seljuks did become Muslims, and whatever Turkic tribe managed to conquer Anatolia is not friends with them. Seeking to separate themselves from the Islamic Turks, they become fervent crusaders and as a result their loyalties remain to Rome. This is definitely what makes them massive enemies of the Russians, who definitely dont want catholic steppe nomads ruling their most holy city. Hungary could easy become a strong ally of this new empire.

The Turks of Anatolia would not in a thousand years become Catholic and survive it afterwards. They'd be torn apart by the East Romans and other Seljuk States. Eastern Orthodox Turkish State may have potential...

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

ETA:

I imagine that an alt-Ottoman Empire in the scenario I propose might end up looking something like what I've outlined in red on the map below, for instance:

View attachment 468220

Might this state actually have an easier time expanding into Italy than the Ottoman Empire of our world?

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

One big difference would be the lack of an Ottoman slave trade in Europe. Religious leaders had made it very clear that taking other Christians as slaves was a big no-no, though Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere and pagans in the Caucasus (groups such as the Ossetians and the Vainakh had yet to fully convert to either Christianity or Islam) might still be fair game. In fact, assuming that European powers still start colonies in the New World and begin growing labor-intensive cash crops there (and I do not see why they wouldn't in this scenario), perhaps they will purchase a substantial portion of their slaves from the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Skallagrim]

Might this state actually have an easier time expanding into Italy than the Ottoman Empire of our world?

I really doubt it. Any non-Catholic power driving towards the very heart of Catholicism would unite the Catholic powers in opposition to this.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

To be clear, does this Christian Ottoman Empire end up controlling roughly the same lands as OTL's version (inc. Hungary, North Africa, the Levant, Egypt, etc.), or is its expansion analogous up to the fall of Constantinople, after which all bets are off regarding what happens?

The Turks of Anatolia would not in a thousand years become Catholic and survive it afterwards. They'd be torn apart by the East Romans and other Seljuk States. Eastern Orthodox Turkish State may have potential...

IDK, the Byzantines weren't really that big on religious wars. If the Byzantines consider the Turks ITTL to be the same as the hated "Latins", that might put a dent in relations, but it's not a given that that would actually be the case (since the Turks would have a very different culture and likely a different attitude towards Byzantium as well).

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

Many of the invading Turks in the eleventh and twelfth centuries were pagan. Despite the depopulation of Anatolia by the military aristocracy after Basil II's death, there was still a sizable Greek and Armenian population living with within it. In fact the Turks didn't even become a plurality in Anatolia until the 17th/18th century. In fact much of the early Ottoman Army was made up of Greeks and Armenians who converted to Islam. And by the time the Ottomans conquered Constantinople much of the Orthodox Christians preferred Islamic Turkish rule rather than rule under the hated Latins. Since this pod is after the Battle of Manzikert where the Turks convert to Christianity, this likely means that the Turks become Hellenized and the Orghuz Turks will be seen as a Turkish dynasty. The actual Turkish and Greek populations share many haplo groups and are not genetically dissimilar. This is because many Anatolian Greeks and Armenians converted to Islam and assimilated into Ottoman Turkish society. But because they would be Orthodox in this timeline they would likely become Hellenized while taking over the Byzantine administrative structure and system which was Greek in language. While some of the Turkish names remain its likely that the Byzantines assimilate them like how the Mongols were sinicized by the Chinese. Since Orthodox Christianity is heavily tied to the Eastern Roman State and its identity the Turkish Christians will likely consider them part of the Eastern Roman world like how the Serbs and Bulgarians were. So maybe when the Romans are weakened the breakaway Bulgarian, Serbian, and Turkish states all fight to have to control Constantinople and rule each other. In this timeline the Bulgarians take Constantinople and claim the tile of Baslieus from the Patriarch.

A Christian revived Byzantine Empire expanding in a similar manner to the otl Ottomans will radically change the dynamics of Europe. If the Fourth Crusade happens, then maybe the Romans likely fall under this Turkish dynasty even faster. If they oppose the Latins the local population might support them as well. With this new state rapidly expanding across Europe and the Levant, the Pope might get scared and try to cause a Crusade calling the new Byzantines as heretics. Or many Christians in the Balkans open their doors to the Christian Byzantine Empire as they would be united by religion. Honestly its hard to determine how Europe would change as it butterflies away too much of otl's history like the Renaissance for example.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

To be clear, does this Christian Ottoman Empire end up controlling roughly the same lands as OTL's version (inc. Hungary, North Africa, the Levant, Egypt, etc.), or is its expansion analogous up to the fall of Constantinople, after which all bets are off regarding what happens?

I am thinking the latter, though given that the Ottoman counterparts are on a roll anyway, I imagine that it is very possible that they would still try for the Middle East, perhaps even justifying the invasion as another Crusade. Whether they would be more or less successful than the Ottoman Empire of our world is an open question.

 

[Pelranius]

What if these alt Ottomans were Nestorian? That could put some breaks on Hellenization.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Could do this by having Tzachas Bey defeat the Byzantine navy and take Constantinople, de facto bringing a Turkish military aristocracy in charge of the Empire.

 

[Silver01]

If they convert to orthodox chirstianity the "sultan" will undoubtedly marry in to the royal line maybe with one of the emperor sisters or cousins
To claim that he and his successors are the rightfull Roman emperor
Turkish culture would survive as the Anatolian platue being similar to the Asian steppe .

But in ourtimeline the Turks got somewhat hellenized

With now them trying to be chirstian emeprors I say that the Turks would integrate more in to the local culture

It would be for lack of a better words just a new dynasty but with radical changes
These Turks can easily take alepo, antioch ,Armenia ,and even Syria
Since the mamaluk sultanate golden age was long gone

 

[Fabius Maximus]

I wonder whether TTL would see the creation of a Turkish Orthodox Church, similar to OTL's Serbian and Bulgarian ones. That could provide a way for the Turks to maintain their distinctiveness vs. the Byzantines without becoming fully Hellenised.

 

[Silver01]

I wonder whether TTL would see the creation of a Turkish Orthodox Church, similar to OTL's Serbian and Bulgarian ones. That could provide a way for the Turks to maintain their distinctiveness vs. the Byzantines without becoming fully Hellenised.

Maybe but then again the patriarch is still important you can't just establish a new curch
I say that the future patriarch accped a fusion of sorts with the turkish culture
Even so the emepror is abone the patriarch ( Cesar over pope )
But the Turks could stir up rebellion if they want to fuse these 2 with out intregation as I'd they do it to early when they don't have that much legitamecy, it could be a disaster

 

[gurgu]

i imagine basically a reformed ERE( nothing byzantine left since they are turks) with 2 options:

1. cosmopolitan society: equal right, same taxes and the usual stuff to make people happier( more taxes only to Muslims?) this would mean a slow assimilation of Bulgarians and greeks; Bulgarians after basil conquered them back in 1018 stayed loyal to the ERE until one of the basileus rises taxes and forced new rules, while the greeks can be satisfied by taking as empress a local so that the successors would be Turk-Greek blood. If the renewed empire manages to recover lots of territories by also using in Janissary style the other cultures as troops( so basically the pretorians) it might have create a more united empire that won't suffer instability like AH or OE in OTL, ans also slowly reconvert the near east to orthodox
2. harsh society: no culture accepted, all heavy taxed or with forced assimilation, it's very risky and would result in several revolts, future of the empire is to collpase like in OTL

about the expansion and threat, this Turkish ERE won't be considered a menace from the other christians unless it tries to retake Rome and by extension destroy the curia

 

[Silver01]

i imagine basically a reformed ERE( nothing byzantine left since they are turks) with 2 options:

1. cosmopolitan society: equal right, same taxes and the usual stuff to make people happier( more taxes only to Muslims?) this would mean a slow assimilation of Bulgarians and greeks; Bulgarians after basil conquered them back in 1018 stayed loyal to the ERE until one of the basileus rises taxes and forced new rules, while the greeks can be satisfied by taking as empress a local so that the successors would be Turk-Greek blood. If the renewed empire manages to recover lots of territories by also using in Janissary style the other cultures as troops( so basically the pretorians) it might have create a more united empire that won't suffer instability like AH or OE in OTL, ans also slowly reconvert the near east to orthodox
2. harsh society: no culture accepted, all heavy taxed or with forced assimilation, it's very risky and would result in several revolts, future of the empire is to collpase like in OTL

about the expansion and threat, this Turkish ERE won't be considered a menace from the other christians unless it tries to retake Rome and by extension destroy the curia

Even with scenario one it would still be hard for them to take Palestine and egypt since there are not that many chirstians to support them

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Even with scenario one it would still be hard for them to take Palestine and egypt since there are not that many chirstians to support them

Well, with the Mamluks past their prime, who else aside from these hypothetical Christian Ottomans would be best positioned to exploit that power vacuum in the Eastern Mediterranean?