How Would the Comte de Chambord Marrying a Russian Grand Duchess Work?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Logistically speaking? Was talking with @The_Most_Happy and wondered how this would work. If Henri's ONLY Comte de Chambord at the time of the marriage, then that's "fine". But if he's already king it seems like a nightmare?

Russian grand duchesses married "at home". Meaning that Henri (who would be a reigning king) would have to travel to St. Petersburg (or at least Russian Poland). He's the "last of his line", which means there's a massive risk involved here. He dies, the crown goes to the Orléans clan. He also can't come with a massive entourage (as befits a king), last time there was such a number of Frenchmen on Russian soil was in 1812.
He can't marry the grand duchess by proxy (since I'm unaware of scenarios where that happened - and naysayers can point to it as proof of his insincerity or consider it a snub to Russia).

Thoughts?

@Valena @alexmilman @Emperor Constantine @JonasResende @isabella @Basileus_Komnenos @anyone else

 

[VVD0D95]

Could there not be a change in circumstance here? It's one thing to get a Duke or some such to marry on Russian soil, quite another to demand it of a King no?

 

[FouDuRoy]

If Henri's ONLY Comte de Chambord at the time of the marriage, then that's "fine". But if he's already king it seems like a nightmare?

What exactly do you mean by "already king"?
Do you assume there was no July Revolution, so young Henry naturally became king after the successive deaths of his grandfather and his uncle?
If so, I don't see why he should take a Russian bride. He would have the choice among basically all the single European princesses and would undoubtedly favorise a Catholic.
Even in OTL, despite being only a claimer in exile, he refused Olga Nikolaïevna and finally married Maria-Theresa of Modena.
Legitimists often deplored this choice as the pairing never had any child and it was said Maria-Theresa had a malformation that prevented her to have sex. I always found this story quite weird and I wonder what are the historical sources about this alledged malformation.
Had Henri married Olga, would the elder branch of the Bourbons have survived? Who knows?

Could there not be a change in circumstance here? It's one thing to get a Duke or some such to marry on Russian soil, quite another to demand it of a King no?

I agree with that.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

What exactly do you mean by "already king"?
Do you assume there was no July Revolution, so young Henry naturally became king after the successive deaths of his grandfather and his uncle?
If so, I don't see why he should take a Russian bride. He would have the choice among basically all the single European princesses and would undoubtedly favorise a Catholic.
Even in OTL, despite being only a claimer in exile, he refused Olga Nikolaïevna and finally married Maria-Theresa of Modena.

Maria Teresa wasn't HIS choice (that was Elizabeth Mikhailovna, followed by Carolina of Salerno (duchesse d'Aumale), she was Madame Royal's after the Neapolitans decided to go with the Conde de Montemolin and duc d'Aumale instead. And had he REMAINED king he likely would've been offered Maria Nikolaïevna, not Olga.

Legitimists often deplored this choice as the pairing never had any child and it was said Maria-Theresa had a malformation that prevented her to have sex. I always found this story quite weird and I wonder what are the historical sources about this alledged malformation.

When Maria Teresa overheard one of these deplorings from a lady-in-waiting, Maria Teresa (who was also partially deaf, so ladies-in-waiting HATED being stuck alone with her) looked at her sadly and said "I know, my child, and for that I am truly sorry".

Had Henri married Olga, would the elder branch of the Bourbons have survived? Who knows?

Since Henri didn't have Karl of Württemberg's roblem (that we know of), I don't see why they wouldn't have. Henri's sister had four kidz, their half-siblings on both sides had kids (Berri's daughters by Amy Brown had a dozen or so between them. A further dozen or more of their grandkids died fighting for France in WWI). The Lucchesi-Pallis didn't have a problem having kids either. So, I think it might have been a combo of Chambord's 1841 riding accident and Maria Teresa's problem was what doomed them

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Since Elizaveta Mikhailovna isn't the daughter of the tsar, only the niece, myabe the Russians could be persuaded to bend on the issue?

 

[FouDuRoy]

Maria Teresa wasn't HIS choice (that was Elizabeth Mikhailovna, followed by Carolina of Salerno (duchesse d'Aumale), she was Madame Royal's after the Neapolitans decided to go with the Conde de Montemolin and duc d'Aumale instead.

Following Madame Royale's idea was his choice. Had he refused, what could she do?

And had he REMAINED king he likely would've been offered Maria Nikolaïevna, not Olga.

Okay for Maria instead of Olga.
But want do you mean by "REMAINED"?
Do you consider he was king at some point? If so, when?

When Maria Teresa overheard one of these deplorings from a lady-in-waiting, Maria Teresa (who was also partially deaf, so ladies-in-waiting HATED being stuck alone with her) looked at her sadly and said "I know, my child, and for that I am truly sorry".

What is the historical source for that?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Following Madame Royale's idea was his choice. Had he refused, what could she do?

Sameas many mothers throughout history have done to get their way. Chambord regarded Marie Thérèse as his mother. He refused to receive his biological mother at her urging. This is Maria Theresia, the Queen of Maternal Manipulation's granddaughter, after all.

What is the historical source for that?

Read it on the Alexanderpalace forums. The person who posted it quoted the source (think it was a bio of Henri V). Its the same place where I found out about the Russian betrothal.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Even in OTL, despite being only a claimer in exile, he refused Olga Nikolaïevna and finally married Maria-Theresa of Modena.
Legitimists often deplored this choice as the pairing never had any child and it was said Maria-Theresa had a malformation that prevented her to have sex. I always found this story quite weird and I wonder what are the historical sources about this alledged malformation.
I always heard that Henri de Chambord was in love with one of his Neapolitan cousins but being a King in exile he was not considered a good match so he married MariaTheresa more or less on the rebound.

Response:

He was in love with Princess Maria Carolina Ferdinanda (1820-1861) of Naples, half sister of her mother, Duchess of Berry. Queen Maria Isabella did not permit the match with the Count of Chambord. So in the end, he married Maria Theresa of Modena

It is Ferdinando II who wanted to marry his sister Maria Carolina Fernanda to Henri V. But Louis Philippe d'Orléans refused, threatening the king of Two Sicilies to sever diplomatic relations. The only woman who had pleased Chambord was Grand duchess Elizabeth of Russia in 1843. She was Czar Nicolas 1st ' niece.

Marie Therese de Austria-Este (1817-1886) was the eldest daughter of Francis IV, Duke of Modena. Her mother was her father's niece, so, technically, she was the offspring of an incestuous union. Her face was slightly marred at birth, so that one side appeared to droop a bit. She was sterile, a fact that was unknown at the time of her 1846 marriage to Henri V, Comte de Chambord. Henri married her after first being rejected by her younger sister, Marie Beatrice (who married Don Juan de Bourbon). The Comtesse de Chambord was known to be kind, dignified, and very pious. Despite her lack of beauty, she possessed a remarkable collection of jewelry, inherited from her husband's aunt, the Duchesse d'Angouleme (daughter of Marie Antoinette) and from her family in Modena. She also owned Frohsdorf, Puchheim and Ebenzweier in Austria. She did not support the Comte de Paris' claim to the French throne, much prefering the claim of her brother-in-law, Don Juan (Head of the Royal House of Bourbon after Chambord's death in 1883). The Comtesse spent her last years at the Levetzow-Lantieri Palace in Gorizia, Italy, where she died of heart problems in 1886. She is one of six Bourbons interred in the crypt of Castagnavizza just outside Gorizia. Her heirs included her nephew, Don Carlos de Bourbon, Duc de Madrid. Frohsdorf was left to Don Juan's son, Don Jaime de Bourbon, who died in 1931. Don Jaime's sister, Princesse Beatrice de Massimo-Bourbon, sold the property in 1941.

An [The comte de Chambord's] obituary from the New York Times:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archiv...756C2A96E9C94629FD7CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

and

Another from 'The Graphic':
http://www.wholesale-prints.net/MBB1883/MBB1883225.jpg


From what I can gather in the second article, he welcomed universal suffrage and a constitutional monarchy, but not the tricolour flag.

So despite his fairly modern social views, he never achieved the throne of France because he was unable to accept a flag.

Would I be incorrect in saying he was one of the most forward thinking Royal figures of his time? I mean, during his lifetime, I'm not sure what countries had given women the vote...?

Some info on Chambord and the flag controversy:

When his restoration was quite literally right around the corner, Henri sent a letter to a politician which he wanted the politician to publish. It said that he would be delighted to return to his rightful place as king and that he planned to unite the French people under the white flag of Henri IV. I think his goal was to suggest that, like Henri IV, he wanted to end the divisions between his people. He didn't realize that choosing a flag that Henri IV had used as a battle standard against Frenchmen was not a good idea for a potential constitutional monarch. Henri IV, had he found himself in a similar situation, would have waved the tricolor over his head and sung the Marseillaise to get the throne back, but he grew up in a very hard school and was a practical man as a result. Henri was a naive idealist who'd been raised on stories about how great the ancien regime was. He'd lived the life of a private country gentleman, surrounded by people who hated the changes that had taken place in France. He knew people who had suffered thanks to the upheavals in France, such as his beloved mother figure, Marie Therese, Duchess d'Angouleme. To him, the tricolor was the flag of revolution and disorder. He felt that using it would dishonor him, Marie Therese, etc. His letter was inflammatory in other ways: he endorsed the divine right of kings and suggested (a la the Blues Brothers) that he was on a mission from God. Unlike the Blues Brothers, he didn’t want to bring people together with music in order to save an orphanage. He wanted to bring the French people together and keep them obedient to his will through force. He didn't think that the republicans could muster enough support to block his restoration when he wrote this letter. At that time, his restoration was thisclose to being a done deal, so he thought that he was in the catbird seat and could dictate terms.

The politician begged him to change the letter. Henri insisted that it should be published as it was so that there would be no confusion about what he stood for. It united people all right, just not the way that Henri had hoped. It stiffened the spines of his enemies and alienated many of his supporters. It proved that he was out of touch with French politics and would not be a satisfactory constitutional monarch. It had the bonus of allowing his enemies (old and new) to rally around the tricolor and get the French press and people all worked up about it.

I don’t think that Henri acted out of spite towards the Orleans. He really wanted to be king and to reign over France. He believed that his letter would win support and was flabbergasted when it backfired. He reportedly made a quiet trip to France in the wake of the publication of his letter and tried to get politicians to present him to the army, etc., as king, thus side-stepping any need on his part to make concessions about the flag or anything else. The politicians had bent over backwards trying to restore him to the throne in a way that would make him happy: they’d agreed to say that he ruled by hereditary right, not by the grace of the people, etc. They were done making concessions to someone who wasn't willing to make return concessions, so they shooed him out of the country.

He reconciled with the Orleans branch of the family before he issued his letter and also recognized them as the heirs to the throne. Those who hate the Orleans have claimed that he later cut them out of his will as a sign that he never made peace with them in his heart, etc. It was also claimed that at the end of his life, he supported the (non-existent) claim of the Spanish Bourbons to the French throne. For all his faults, he was an honorable man. He didn’t make the decision to recognize the Orleans as his heirs lightly, nor did he ever (AFAIK) formally repudiate them as such. However, it’s fair to say that he didn’t like them (and vice-versa) and that his will was his way of thumbing his nose at them.

The letter doomed his chances. A deal had been put together in which he'd be recognized as ruling by hereditary right. After he was restored, a constitution would be presented to him that he was supposed to sign even though it would limit his power, etc. At the eleventh hour, a group of French politicians visited him and explained the deal. They thought he was okay with it, returned to France, and said so. Articles appeared in newspapers to the effect that he would be happy to use the tricolor and that he would be a great constitutional monarch, hence the legend that he was relatively liberal.

He wanted to set the record straight and prove his strength and independence. He made it clear that it would be the white flag for him or no flag. He tried to be clever: he didn’t expressly say that he would reject a constitution, refuse to limit his power, etc. He did say that he shouldn’t be required to give guarantees or promises in exchange for restoration and thus hinted that he’d reject the constitution. The flag issue wasn’t the sticking point, although it must be admitted that it wasn't a selling point. Henri’s attempt to tap-dance around promising to limit his power and his statements advocating the use of force were the problem. The politicians realized that he’d be such a disaster as king that he’d ruin himself as well as the careers of those who'd restored him, i.e. them. They made a big stink about his rejection of the tricolor, which was the easiest thing to nail him on, and blocked his restoration. If he’d backpedaled in a big way (and very quickly!) after his letter backfired, he might have been able to pull off a restoration, but he would have had to make a lot of signed and sealed concessions since he'd lost the trust of the politicians. Unfortunately, he thought that making concessions was a sign of weakness; he didn't understand that he was in a weak bargaining position. It was not in him to acknowledge the will of the people, much less bow to it. He knew that everything was set up for his restoration and thought that they simply couldn't do without him.

Henri’s belief in the divine right of kings, etc., was not new to him. Charles X and Marie Therese had drummed it into his ears as a child. His education and friends bolstered his belief. The years he’d spent as a nonentity in obscure exile meant that no one knew what he was like or what he believed in when the restoration package was put together. He wasn’t in on the talks that led to the restoration package; it was presented to him as a fait accompli. It was thought that he’d realize that the French politicians and people were doing him a huge favor. No one realized that he'd look his gift horse in the mouth. Henri wasn’t stupid per se, just naïve, inexperienced, and haunted by the stories he’d heard about the horrors of the French Revolution, etc. If his exile hadn’t been pampered and luxurious i.e. if he’d had to beg for money from relatives who refused to give him any; hide in a tree while his enemies hunted him; or had had to pawn his most treasured possessions to put food on the table, he might have behaved differently.

After the letter was published, there were efforts to salvage the deal but Henri stood firm, so the monarchist party split back into the Orleanist and Legitimist groups and the chance to restore the monarchy in some form was lost. Some hoped that Henri would die and that the Comte de Paris (the head of the House of Orleans) could be substituted as king in his place. It was not to be. Some hoped that once Henri died, the offer would be renewed and the Orleans would take the throne. Again, it was not to be.

from The Comte de Chambord: The Third Republic's Uncompromising King by Marvin L. Brown. Published in 1967 by Duke University Press:

The most significant event in his early days as pretender was his marriage to Marie Thérèse, daughter of Francis IV of Modena and sister of Francis V, who had just come to the throne....
Rather than turn to a German princess, the royal matchmakers next concentrated on the Lorraine-Habsburg-Este House in Modena. Inevitably much opposition would have developed in Paris to any marriage of a prominent reigning family with an exiled prince. But while great concern would have been felt at the Palais Royale if, for instance, a Romanov princess had exchanged vows with Henri, a marriage with the House of Modena could scarcely be regarded as doing more than uniting the exiled family with a house which to all intents and purposes already recognized the elder branch of the family.
The Duke of Modena apparently expected that his elder daughter, Marie Thérèse, would go into a convent. But however unmarriagable she might have been, the Duchesse d'Angoulême and the Empress of Austria seem to have decided that she should marry the Comte de Chambord. The story that Metternich and Louis Philippe arranged this union, thinking that the rumored sterility of Marie Thérèse would bring an end to the elder Bourbon line, has no foundation, but its later currency well illustrates a frame of mind springing from dynastic rivalry. When asked whether she would be willing to marry Henri, she is supposed to have replied, "With joy!"-words which were reported to Henri, who, starved for joy, seems to have been doubly impressed. Moreover, she was described to Henri, correctly enough, as religious, with the result that he regarded her as the proper choice. Arrangements were soon made, and on 16 Nov 1846 they were married at Bruck-am-Mur in Styria, a marriage described by the Marquis de Belleval as the "prime obstacle to restoration of the monarch." This judgment may be a bit strong, but the fact the Comte de Chambord had no heir certainly had some bearing on his role as pretender. While he always listened politely to his wife, Marie Thérèse could not reciprocate because she was deaf. She was little inclined toward practical affairs, which she was apt to dismiss with religious platitudes, and of no direct political influence upon him. On the other hand, she was so haunted by the guillotine and her hatred of the Orleans that she certainly helped foster the hesitant atmosphere in which the Comte de Chambord was prone to drift. She seems to have feared restoration, its perils, and the demands which would have been made on her as Queen, and to have encouraged the Comte de Paris to be content in exile. She has been called son mauvais génie. In any case, while she was an obedient spouse, she had none of her husband's charm or regal qualities.
There were similarities and differences between the life of the Comte de Chambord and the exiled court at Frohsdorf and at Venice, but one of the unifying features was the presence of the Comtesse. She was always with him. While she was ever in the shadow of her husband, she cast a certain shadow of her own on him and the entourage. Her gloom was well-known. She once said: "The more one is a royalist, the more one should long for my death, since I have no children." And whatever rays of hope did come to her when assured she would be more fortunate in the Tuileries must have been fleeting, for she later commented: "It would be better for everyone if someone would kill me." Somewhat differing descriptions have been given of her appearance and grace, or lack of it. She was tall, had black hair, and her face was definately deformed at birth, one side appearing a bit smaller than the other. Her voice has been described as "unpleasant," and her timidity was very noticeable to the large number of people whom she had to receive. While altogether lacking in charm, she was dignified in spite of these detractions. Her conduct towards her husband was always correct, and in her way she was loving. Henri never complained of her, and his constancy and courtesy to his wife were notable. But while in a way she was an appropriate companion for him in exile, even a "Henri V en pantoufles," she lent an air of especial sadness to Henri's exile and was definately a major liability to him as the pretender.

Not sure what Henri's wearing here, but if it's Tartan it's good for a laugh (that's the only reason I posted the picture

In the spring of 1843, Count of Chambord was invited by Duke of Modena, Francesco IV in his villa in Catajo, near Padua. Henri met the two daughters of the duke: Maria Teresa, the eldest and Beatrice. The first had his face deformed at birth by the iron of the midwife She was three years older than the Prince who was interested more in the younger much more beautiful with a nice figure. He asked the duke to marry her. Maria Beatrice refused because she was already engaged with Don Juan de Borbon, future count of Montizon, second son of Don Carlos (Carlos V)
( Source: Baronne de Frénilly: mémoire sur le mariage de Mgr le comte de Chambord, Archivio di Lucca, Italia)

In the year 1847 M. de la Ferronaya was presented to the Comtesse de Chambord. He did not find her pretty but he said She was anxious to please and had shown herself amiable towards the French having not yet reached the time, as She often told me she felt humiliated before them, because of her sterility and considered the more Royalist they were, the more they ought to desire her Death.

Anyway, the asymmetry of Marie-Therese's face would have nothing to do with her sterility. And this, just for a very simple reason: this assymetry was not congenital. It's was only the consequence of her difficult birth. The obstetrician made a bad application of the forceps on her face and she was left like that...

But, despite your "feminist" argumentation, I'm sorry, it's more than probable that the sterility was her responsability, and not her husband's responsability...

Jean-François Chiappe, in his biography of the Comte de Chambord, report that Marie-Therese had gynecological problems since her very young age. After that, she had a difficult puberty, and all her life long, irregular and very painful menstruation...

Incidentally, "anyone married to Henri, who had all the personality and charisma of a bump on a log, would have been depressed", do you say. I don't know where you found that. It's very inexact. All the people who described the life in the intimity of Frohsdorf say the same thing: Henry was funny, cheerful, even "dazzling". With the crowned heads as well as with the small farmers. Especially when he was with his sister, the duchess of Parma. It was then "a firework of jokes, never nasty, but always funny". One day, an archiduchess was invited for a great dinner. He disguised his friend, the count of Damas, in a coachman, and when she arrived, he said to her: "Oh! Please forgive me, but my coachman's dream was to have dinner with an archiduchess, I could not refuse, I seated him at your side." The princess was upset and was sulking during all the dinner, and only after, Henry said the truth to her, who laughed a lot about this hoax, with all other guests.

One day, during a reception, everybody bowed deeply when he approched, and he said : "Oh, I see, this night, it's open ass!"...

But, for Marie-Therese, everybody is unanimous. She was absolutely sinister, and the worst is that she knew it... The comtesse de Chevigné, one day, hade to make a promenade with Marie-Therese. It was so sad that, overwhrought, she ended up saying out loud to herself (Marie-Therese was deaf too, since her young age... She was complete!) : "My God! What a bore!". But for once, Marie-Therese understood. She said :"My poor child! I'm sorry..."

To answer to Eric Lowe, in fact, Henry was in love with the grand-duchess Elisabeth of Russia, Nicolas I's niece ( grand-duke Michel's daughter), he met her in Jüterlock in 1843. The king of Prussia asked to his brother-in-law, the Czar, if he would be ok. Nicolas I was delighted, and authorized her niece's conversion to catholicism. But Marie-Therese, Henry's aunt (daugnter of Louis XVI), was opposed to this alliance. For the proud princess, Romanov were a too recent dynasty, definitively not prestigious enough for a future Queen of France... The talks between Henry and Nicolas were stopped. Anyway, Elisabeth died very young, but she most probably would have had time enough to give a child (and maybe a son?) to Henry... What a pity...

Hope all of this helps @The_Most_Happy and anyone else who wants to attempt a Henri V TL (@Emperor Constantine). My apologies @FouDuRoy I was mistaken about the reason for Maria Teresa of Modena's apology, but hopefully the above illustrates that she was certainly not the type of woman cut out to be queen of France.

Edit: Sorry about how the above came out "stacked", they're from this discussion just picked the parts that were "relevant"

 

[JonasResende]

What about a compromise scenario? He met Lili in 1843 in Germany. If he's king of France I doubt he's going to be junketing off across the Rhine (look at Pedro II), so perhaps keep the 1830 deposition in place. That way, Henri only needs to travel from Frohsdorf (in Lower Austria) to Russian Poland for the match. Not all the way across Europe.

Then, 1848 rolls around and somehow Henri V gets restored?

 

[The_Most_Happy]

@JonasResende could he be going through Germany or even Austria to meet prospective brides and bump into Lili there? (My timeline involves him keeping his throne in 1i30, which is why I'm asking. Madame Royale loses a decent chunk of her influence too)