How would Europe develop in the absence of Rome?

Assuming that, for whatever reason, there is no Roman or substitute conqueror to invade and subjugate the tribes of Europe, and that these tribes are allowed to develop relatively isolated, how would they develop?

What kind of society, culture, economy, warfare, government and the such would develop?

Would the world afterwards be at all similar to our Dark Ages, or would it be very much different?

Would technology eventually catch up, and if so, how long would this take?
 
This is too assume Greece doesn't venture into Italy to influence Rome, but instead, venture North East...where they run into Germania. Germanic Empire? Maybe.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Unless Greece or Carthage filled the gap. Carthage is far and away the most likely as they were already attempting conquest of Europe until stopped by Rome.

But Persia would have taken a lot of their orig empire back. They were doing so before Rome rolled in. Doubt they could take Ptolemaic Egypt though. The rest, probably
 

katchen

Banned
Mithradites had real potential to build an empire centered around the Black Sea and extending on either side up the Danube and maybe even the Brysthynes/Dneiper and Tanais/Don. Especially if he could keep the allegiance of the Sarmatians. A Pontic Empire from the Caspian to the Marcomanni (and possibly the Baltic and the Alemanni) bordering the Carthaginian Empire ruling Gaul and Britannia and the Arcsids to the Southeast and the Ptolemies due South might make for stability for hundreds of years.
 
I think Greece or Greek civilizations like Ptolemaic Egypt would dominate the Eastern Mediterranian and the Carthaginian Empire would control the Western Mediterranian including probably Italy.
 
But Persia would have taken a lot of their orig empire back. They were doing so before Rome rolled in. Doubt they could take Ptolemaic Egypt though. The rest, probably

I don't know. the decline of the Seleucids had as much to do with the Romans as with the Parthians.
 
I've always liked the idea of a united Gaul as a European power. Without Rome, I could see the Arverni uniting Gaul around the time of Caesar's campaigns there IOTL. They would have the strong, defensible borders that the Bourbons constantly sought for France (the Rhine in the east, the Alps and the Pyrenees in the South, and the sea in the west and north); the Germanic tribes would provide enough trouble for the Gauls to develop a strong and sophisticated military.

Carthage will almost certainly not create an empire at the scale of Rome's. Carthage was a maritime empire, not a land empire. The only territory outside Africa it really fought for between 500 and 240 BC was Greek Sicily (and maybe Sardinia, I can't remember when it was colonized by Carthage); it's conquests in Iberia came primarily as compensation for the territory it lost after the First Punic War, and were won by a private army. The Carthaginian state, outside of Greek Sicily, was historically more interested in peace and prosperity than wars of expansion, and Rome being out of the picture means only that there is less incentive for expansion.

Now, that is my opinion on the Carthaginian state's interest in expansion. I suppose it is feasible that an individual like Hannibal Barca could amass enough wealth to employ a private army and form an independent Punic kingdom in Italy or Iberia or something, though it's probably unlikely. It's unlikely that it would be a state-sponsored mission, unless tribes were threatening Punic cities on an annual basis, since there would be little reason for the government to commission it otherwise. Such a kingdom would likely gain its independence from Carthage pretty quickly, considering the large reserves of manpower it would then have, and the lack of will of Carthage itself to sink large resources into subduing and administrating barbarian tribesmen. IMO, it'd be more interesting to think about how those territories might have developed without a power conquering it, whether it be Rome or Carthage or Macedonia.

The eastern Mediterranean is probably dominated by Greeks, especially if the PoD is sometime after the Macedonian victory at Chaeronea. If it's before, it's probably more likely that Persia dominates the east, whether the Achaemenid dynasty still rules or not.

One timeline the OP might be interesting in checking out is Errnge's The Weighted Scales, which begins with Rome's destruction in 390 BC at the hands of the Gaulish warlord Brennus.
 
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elkarlo

Banned
I don't know. the decline of the Seleucids had as much to do with the Romans as with the Parthians.

True. But I mean more as in who ever was ruling Persia would prolly make life difficult for anyone with territorial aspirations in the eastern Mediterranean area.
 
Europe would be a lot more 'Indian', that is, the European socio-political situation would resemble that of India in the long run.

Of course, the butterflies are endless; India itself won't look very Indian by the time the year 2000 (which won't be the year 2000) rolls around.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
What about social effect ? Its "roman peace" that enabled great landowner to have large land with many slaves/serf. Without peace, will europe have more equal distribution of land, with large "free warrior farmer" class dominated ?

Also, what about Urban spread ? with no Rome, will gauls managed to build city ? what about Britons ? how large Paris and London in 3rd or 5th century without rome ?

What about migrations ? without legion guarding Rhine and Danube, is migrations will be more successful ? will Greece overrun by Slavs ?

what about trade ? with no Roman substitute ? non-med France and Spain will be more unstable, with one generation king, whose death guarantee civil war. some trade route will fail to develop, and some crop and technology (windmill? sugar cane? draft horse? cotton? sorghum? ) will not be introduced from east med to western europe.

what about military ? with no byzantine/sarmatian/arab, will knight class fail to be established ? will shieldwall become main tactic in west europe ?
 
I'm sure some Carthaginian would have come along and seen the value in conquering Europe.

It just went completely contrary to everything about Carthage. There is no reason Carthage would suddenly have this ambition to conquer Europe. It never crossed their minds in the few hundred years before they came across Rome, and there's no reason to suspect it would here.
 
Also, what about Urban spread ? with no Rome, will gauls managed to build city ? what about Britons ? how large Paris and London in 3rd or 5th century without rome ?

What about migrations ? without legion guarding Rhine and Danube, is migrations will be more successful ? will Greece overrun by Slavs ?

what about trade ? with no Roman substitute ? non-med France and Spain will be more unstable, with one generation king, whose death guarantee civil war. some trade route will fail to develop, and some crop and technology (windmill? sugar cane? draft horse? cotton? sorghum? ) will not be introduced from east med to western europe.

I think the Gauls were already following the Greek example of cities in southern Gaul, and Celts had their own oppida in Central Europe. The Celts, the Carthaginians and the Greeks were all very ready to trade.
 

katchen

Banned
Has anybody read "The Poison King" about Mithradetes VI and his Kingdom of Pontus centered around the Black Sea? It should give any listmember who reads it ideas about a Pontus based TL. Pontus and the Black Sea might make a nice, compact basis for an Empire in Early Antiquity just as it did for the Byzantines in Late Antiquity.
 
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