How to get China to feel conquest is a good idea.

[Emperor RyRy]

So, I've often seen questions about "How to get China to colonize the Americas", and the main reason they can't is that a central part of Chinese society (at least in terms of countries and states) is that the Middle Kingdom is the best ever and that all other barbarians are stupid. But it obviously wasn't always lie this. The Qin conquered, and the Han annexed the southern parts of China (Canton?). How come that didn't continue in the Imperial Dynasties that were native Han(the Qing and Yuan were conquerors by default)? Where did the idea to literally not expand the Middle Kingdom originate? And how could we change that?

 

[BBadolato]

The problem with that would be whats the point, China believed itself to be the best, because it held a strong position. This is not to say the Chinese dynasties where adverse to conquests, but colonization is a whole another game, that has to be seen as worthwhile somehow.

 

[funnyhat]

I don't think Chinese monarchs feared conquest so much as they weren't interested in the massive Pacific Ocean crossing. The Pacific is more than twice as wide as the Atlantic and, what's more, the west coast of the Americas is far more rugged and contains less arable land than the east. Imagine making the grueling journey across the Pacific only to end up in the Atacama desert or Baja California.

 

[scholar]

Make the earlier tests to conquer Taiwan successful, and later prevent an An Lushan Rebellion analog/reality during the Tang(*). Also, should the conquest of Korea go off successfully, then you can either have outside conquest become more desirable, or at the very least expand what is the heartland of China. Also, all three areas are potential launching points for further advancement.

 

[Emperor RyRy]

Make the earlier tests to conquer Taiwan successful, and later prevent an An Lushan Rebellion analog/reality during the Tang(*). Also, should the conquest of Korea go off successfully, then you can either have outside conquest become more desirable, or at the very least expand what is the heartland of China. Also, all three areas are potential launching points for further advancement.

So it isn't crazy to think of Korea, Dai Viet, and Taiwan being considered as much Chinese as Cantonese are today?

 

[Avrorrange]

So it isn't crazy to think of Korea, Dai Viet, and Taiwan being considered as much Chinese as Cantonese are today?

Most certainly it's not crazy.China had control of Vietnam for more than a thousand years(although culturally,it never seemed to integrate like the Cantonese or the Fujian).As for Korea,it's heavily influenced by Confucianism,so I think it could be integrated if you can somehow conquer it.The problem with Korea is that it's too cold,too difficult to re-supply,too isolated from the rest of China and too unprofitable,so most of the time you see a pullout if it does get conquered.

 

[scholar]

So it isn't crazy to think of Korea, Dai Viet, and Taiwan being considered as much Chinese as Cantonese are today?

Not at all, really. Korea was anywhere between a third to a half completely annexed by the Han, Wei, and Western Jin Dynasties. The rest of the Korean peninsula were direct tributary clients. That's about as far as China ever got to actually controlling Korea, but there were several later attempts which may or may not succeed depending on the scenario. At this same time Shi Xie of the Later Han, and later Wu consolidated much of northern Vietnam into China (where it would remain until the Song Dynasty was conquered). The Han Dynasty had a rather extensive empire in Central Asia, but this was largely martial and beyond a few military colonies nothing was done to colonize the region. The Tang went a little further, perhaps having recognized authority to the Caspian with a powerful military force that occupied a role similar to that of a Central Steppe Khan until An Lushan crippled the Tang and the balance of power shifted to the Arab allied Turks. Lastly, Taiwan was subject to at least three invasions that we know of that all failed do to disease and cost. Eastern Wu of the 3rd Century briefly conquered the island, but withdrew after a couple years with major casualties. The native populous was reported to have been similar to the old Yue and Wu state some fifteen hundred years prior to that point, but this is highly contested as a historical reality. The Sui made an invasion of either Taiwan or the Philippines around the time they invaded Korea, and whatever good fortune the expedition may have had it was expensive, had a number of diseases and plagues, and was ended prematurely do to the Korea disaster.

There were attempts, and limited success, on all these fronts. The issue is that they never really materialized. China's internal problems ended Central Asian supremacy, China's conquest by the Mongols led to Vietnam's permanent departure, China's best opportunity to take over Korea was dashed by a mixture of Chinese instability, foreign invasions, and the deposition of the clan that had successfully conquered the peninsula, and the other opportunities were long shots as they occurred, while Taiwan's largest problem appears to be disease and the weather - which means the people were largely being taken from parts of China other than Fujian and nearby provinces.

Depending on the PODs and the directions of the butterflies, its really not impossible to see one or two of them becoming success stories. Its certainly a lot harder, but it is possible for all avenues to work.

 

[mlp]

On note of Korea, the country was always too willing to become an ally of the dominant power in China and too unwilling to be directly administrated.
Furthermore the main reason China saw no reason to go farther: they were already the centre of the world. First time they met the Russians and their language, they thought it was a distant dialect and wrote a letter demanding tribute. Seriously, they are some people.

 

[Emperor RyRy]

Not at all, really. Korea was anywhere between a third to a half completely annexed by the Han, Wei, and Western Jin Dynasties. The rest of the Korean peninsula were direct tributary clients. That's about as far as China ever got to actually controlling Korea, but there were several later attempts which may or may not succeed depending on the scenario. At this same time Shi Xie of the Later Han, and later Wu consolidated much of northern Vietnam into China (where it would remain until the Song Dynasty was conquered). The Han Dynasty had a rather extensive empire in Central Asia, but this was largely martial and beyond a few military colonies nothing was done to colonize the region. The Tang went a little further, perhaps having recognized authority to the Caspian with a powerful military force that occupied a role similar to that of a Central Steppe Khan until An Lushan crippled the Tang and the balance of power shifted to the Arab allied Turks. Lastly, Taiwan was subject to at least three invasions that we know of that all failed do to disease and cost. Eastern Wu of the 3rd Century briefly conquered the island, but withdrew after a couple years with major casualties. The native populous was reported to have been similar to the old Yue and Wu state some fifteen hundred years prior to that point, but this is highly contested as a historical reality. The Sui made an invasion of either Taiwan or the Philippines around the time they invaded Korea, and whatever good fortune the expedition may have had it was expensive, had a number of diseases and plagues, and was ended prematurely do to the Korea disaster.

There were attempts, and limited success, on all these fronts. The issue is that they never really materialized. China's internal problems ended Central Asian supremacy, China's conquest by the Mongols led to Vietnam's permanent departure, China's best opportunity to take over Korea was dashed by a mixture of Chinese instability, foreign invasions, and the deposition of the clan that had successfully conquered the peninsula, and the other opportunities were long shots as they occurred, while Taiwan's largest problem appears to be disease and the weather - which means the people were largely being taken from parts of China other than Fujian and nearby provinces.

Depending on the PODs and the directions of the butterflies, its really not impossible to see one or two of them becoming success stories. Its certainly a lot harder, but it is possible for all avenues to work.

So it seems Chinese states, at least pre-Ming, were more unlucky in their conquests than actually unable/unwilling.

Huh.

That'd be a cool story. With most of East Asia annexed by one or two dynasties, and the tributary empire expanded far further as a result.

 

[Avrorrange]

On note of Korea, the country was always too willing to become an ally of the dominant power in China and too unwilling to be directly administrated.
Furthermore the main reason China saw no reason to go farther: they were already the centre of the world. First time they met the Russians and their language, they thought it was a distant dialect and wrote a letter demanding tribute. Seriously, they are some people.

And quite often it is beneficial to pay tribute to the Chinese because they will generally give you much more expensive gifts in return for your paltry of a tribute(pretty stupid of the Chinese in my opinion).

 

[Emperor RyRy]

And quite often it is beneficial to pay tribute to the Chinese because they will generally give you much more expensive gifts in return for your paltry of a tribute(pretty stupid of the Chinese in my opinion).

Just like colonizing Africa was a dick-measuring contest for Europeans, the tributary empire was basically China's dick-measuring contest against itself.

 

[TinyTartar]

I think that economics would actually not have much to do with this trend if it happened, but rather would be social in nature. Zheng He and his ilk might have brought China a lot of wealth, and conquest of colonial outposts would only help this along, but it was stopped precisely because of a fear of the unknown, in addition of course to the politics of the court eunuchs.

I think the only way to make conquest part of China's perspective is to make Confucianism develop in a way that is a bit more martial, and sees the army, in addition to the scholar-bureaucrats, as a high path. Maybe have Confucius get meaningful military experience and discuss it in his works. Conquest and the army are therefore exalted, and a warrior class more substantial than in OTL develops, albeit not in any way that could threaten the scholar-bureaucrats who made China self sufficient.

 

[Avrorrange]

I think that economics would actually not have much to do with this trend if it happened, but rather would be social in nature. Zheng He and his ilk might have brought China a lot of wealth, and conquest of colonial outposts would only help this along, but it was stopped precisely because of a fear of the unknown, in addition of course to the politics of the court eunuchs.

I think the only way to make conquest part of China's perspective is to make Confucianism develop in a way that is a bit more martial, and sees the army, in addition to the scholar-bureaucrats, as a high path. Maybe have Confucius get meaningful military experience and discuss it in his works. Conquest and the army are therefore exalted, and a warrior class more substantial than in OTL develops, albeit not in any way that could threaten the scholar-bureaucrats who made China self sufficient.

Zheng He and co. didn't bring any wealth to China.It was the opposite--the expeditions were unprofitable and was a drain on the empire's resources.

 

[moxn]

I suspect that behind all of the ideological reasons given there's really a less romantic and a bit more logical reasoning behind it as well.

You invade and annex southern kingdoms to plunder their wealth and gain prestige, you target certain areas and subdue them to stop raids, you wrest control of key areas to control trade along the silk road, you push out into the steppes and conquer the peoples there to act as buffer against all the steppe confederations that had a knack for popping up every few centuries.

None of those practical reasons would have existed for any trans-Pacific adventure; there were no rich lands (that they knew of and could have realistically reached) to plunder, no trade routes to control, no raiders to put a stop to, no need for a buffer region, etc.

 

[Coalition]

And quite often it is beneficial to pay tribute to the Chinese because they will generally give you much more expensive gifts in return for your paltry of a tribute(pretty stupid of the Chinese in my opinion).

Actually it does work in a manner. China is being acknowledged as a superior power due to the tribute, and if you try to declare yourself independent, those nice gifts stop benefiting your country's economy. So if you stop the tribute, your economy drops, your royal family loses some of its prestige, and then China sends in troops to ask why.

China essentially ties those outlier countries tighter to itself by giving them gifts.


China basically says "You give us money/tribute, and we will give you gifts that we consider to be cheap but you value highly. And if you stop giving us money/tribute, we stop with the gifts, and your economy crashes."

Sounds almost like what China is doing today.

 

[democracy101]

Not at all, really. Korea was anywhere between a third to a half completely annexed by the Han, Wei, and Western Jin Dynasties. The rest of the Korean peninsula were direct tributary clients. That's about as far as China ever got to actually controlling Korea, but there were several later attempts which may or may not succeed depending on the scenario . . .

China's best opportunity to take over Korea was dashed by a mixture of Chinese instability, foreign invasions, and the deposition of the clan that had successfully conquered the peninsula, and the other opportunities were long shots as they occurred . . .

Depending on the PODs and the directions of the butterflies, its really not impossible to see one or two of them becoming success stories. Its certainly a lot harder, but it is possible for all avenues to work.

The main problem with this is that "Korea" from around 300 BC to AD 668 was very different from modern "Korea." While Southern Manchuria (including Liaodong and Liaoxi) remained culturally "Korean" before 300 BC, topographical evidence indicates that the peninsula south of Pyongyang remained culturally "Japanese" until then, after which the Yan's conflicts with Gojoseon (~300 BC) and the latter's conquest by the Han (108 BC) triggered migrations into the peninsula. The locals were then either pushed out onto the Japanese archipelago or gradually assimilated by ~AD 300. On the other hand, Buyeo (another "Korean" entity that originated from what is now Harbin) rapidly expanded its holdings to cover Manchuria south of either the Songhua or Amur until Goguryeo (initially Jolbon Buyeo) broke off from the southwest in the 1st century BC, and its aggressive stance may have forced the Han to abandon two of four commanderies in the northwest Korean peninsula by 82 BC. While Goguryeo nominally continued to pay tribute to China, it also heavily pressured the Han during the AD 1st and 2nd centuries by overrunning Lelang twice, as well as repeatedly attacking Xuantu and Liaodong (within Manchuria) with Xianbei allies, which the Han barely retained after timely intervention from Buyeo. Goguryeo continued to be pressured by both until the Xianbei invaded Buyeo in 285, and the Wu Hu invasions devastated North China from 304 onward, enabling it to rapidly expand both north and south to secure territory stretching from the Songhua to Pyongyang.

However, had Goguryeo been less successful in its endeavors, Buyeo (which was recorded in Chinese sources as almost three times as populous as Goguryeo in the AD 3rd century despite significant undercounting for both) could have just as easily pressured China for centuries, given that it had far more resources at its disposal. Although Buyeo was forced to ally with China in order to constrain Goguryeo's growing influence, it was also more than willing to switch sides when necessary, as it attacked Xuantu with Goguryeo and Xianbei allies in AD 167. Either Goguryeo or Buyeo would have been more than willing to ally with the Cao Wei in order to attack the Gongsun clan in the early AD 3rd century, while Buyeo would have been in a much stronger position to continuously pressure China's holdings in Liaodong and the northwestern Korean Peninsula had it retained a stronger hold within Manchuria. Given that the Han, Cao Wei, and Jin all remained content with leaving well over 70 statelets within the Korean Peninsula as tributaries, while a sudden absence of major nomadic invasions in the early 4th century would have strengthened both China and Buyeo, China would have thought twice before attempting to expand further into Manchuria or the Korean Peninsula while Buyeo continued to build up its army (specifically mentioned as quite formidable in Chinese sources).

The Han also did not control much more than Lelang and Zhenfan (later Daifang) along the northwestern coast, or less than a third, because the easternmost regions were either too rugged with sparse populations, or were pressured by hostile tribes from the north (Goguryeo), although it may have directly controlled up to a third shortly after 108 BC.

There's also the fact that spending significant resources to conquer Korea, Vietnam, or Central Asia makes it much more difficult to assimilate them due to occasional revolts.

On note of Korea, the country was always too willing to become an ally of the dominant power in China and too unwilling to be directly administrated.
Furthermore the main reason China saw no reason to go farther: they were already the centre of the world. First time they met the Russians and their language, they thought it was a distant dialect and wrote a letter demanding tribute. Seriously, they are some people.

Korean entities had continued to pay tribute to China, with very few exceptions in extreme circumstances, while the military campaigns that did occur were very costly for China.

So it seems Chinese states, at least pre-Ming, were more unlucky in their conquests than actually unable/unwilling.

Huh.

That'd be a cool story. With most of East Asia annexed by one or two dynasties, and the tributary empire expanded far further as a result.

Not exactly. See above.

 

[Avrorrange]

Actually it does work in a manner. China is being acknowledged as a superior power due to the tribute, and if you try to declare yourself independent, those nice gifts stop benefiting your country's economy. So if you stop the tribute, your economy drops, your royal family loses some of its prestige, and then China sends in troops to ask why.

China essentially ties those outlier countries tighter to itself by giving them gifts.


China basically says "You give us money/tribute, and we will give you gifts that we consider to be cheap but you value highly. And if you stop giving us money/tribute, we stop with the gifts, and your economy crashes."

Sounds almost like what China is doing today.

Not true.The Chinese don't consider their stuff cheap.They were giving 'tributaries' goods much more expensive than they received in return.Why did you think Zheng He's expeditions were abandoned eventually?They were essentially bribing others to acknowledge they were the top dog.

 

[jahenders]

For much of Chinese history there were various potential threats at any time (revolt, barbarians, civil war, etc). They did conquer various areas at various times, but in large most emperors might have felt that an extensive campaign far from the core of the empire might have left them vulnerable at home.

 

[Avrorrange]

For much of Chinese history there were various potential threats at any time (revolt, barbarians, civil war, etc). They did conquer various areas at various times, but in large most emperors might have felt that an extensive campaign far from the core of the empire might have left them vulnerable at home.

Essentially yes.The larger your empire is,the less control you actually have over the armies at the border.

 

[hx87]

You have to change geography so that the neighbors are worth conquering. For most of Chinese history after Qin the borderlands consisted of tributaries and allies (Korea & Vietnam), steppes (Mongolia), desert wastelands (Xinjiang), mountainous wastelands (Tibet), and malaria-infested tropics (most of SEA). It really wasn't worth the cost to take and hold them.