How to Create Advanced Civilizations in Africa?

[Ceranthor]

Obvious troll is obvious

Forgive my noobiness. I'm fully aware of Great Zimbabwe, Mali, the many others. But a heavy helping of those empires were centered in Central Africa, and were heavily influenced by Muslim culture, and even then only Songhai(and maybe Nok) was on par with any nations in Europe, technologically and culturally.

I'm basically asking if there's any way that Sub-Saharan Africa could have the technological and political sophistication of Europe or China or someplace like that throughout its history.

 

[Tobit]

I don't see how you could rank political, cultural, or technological sophistication if modern historians have an extremely limited picture of sub-saharan african history (in comparison with say Europe or China).

 

[Monty Burns]

To get more advanced civilizations in Sub-Saharan Africa, a natural Suez channel could be used as well. Say Sinai vanishes, then trade along the red sea and further with Asia, but also with Eastern africa increases substantially. Probably Mediterranean Empires would expand along the Red Sea coast as well. Ethiopia in particular wouldn't be that "distant".

Another possibility would be to increase sea-trade over the Atlantic. The Carthaginians would surely be able to start trading with Senegal and Guinea IOTL by ship rather than by caravans. Let the Romans take over that trade and let it continue until later, exposing Senegal and Guinea way more to Mediterranean and European culture.

 

[Mr Qwerty]

To get more advanced civilizations in Sub-Saharan Africa, a natural Suez channel could be used as well. Say Sinai vanishes, then trade along the red sea and further with Asia, but also with Eastern africa increases substantially. Probably Mediterranean Empires would expand along the Red Sea coast as well. Ethiopia in particular wouldn't be that "distant".

Another possibility would be to increase sea-trade over the Atlantic. The Carthaginians would surely be able to start trading with Senegal and Guinea IOTL by ship rather than by caravans. Let the Romans take over that trade and let it continue until later, exposing Senegal and Guinea way more to Mediterranean and European culture.

These would be excellent, combined perhaps with the "Greek-like antiquity" thread idea. Trade connections with Med/Europe/possibly America in the west, and Middle East/India/SE Asia in the east would accelerate things a lot, and bring into existence whole nationalities and civilizations that never existed OTL. Might be possible to get climate-appropriate crops and domestic animals to Bantu farming peoples. You'd need some reason to drastically accelerate shipbuilding/nagivation technology.

No tsetse fly would help, but that would put this in the ASB forum.

For a more recent POD, have Mansa Musa die at birth. He ruined Mali.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

There were advanced civilizations in Africa: Mali, Ghana, Songhai, various Ethiopian dynasties, Hausa States, Kanem Bornu, Nubian kingdoms etc.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

There were advanced civilizations in Africa: Mali, Ghana, Songhai, various Ethiopian dynasties, Hausa States, Kanem Bornu, Nubian kingdoms etc.

I was always a fan of the various Yoruba and Edo kingdoms in Nigeria. Especially the Benin Empire. The Dutch for example were very impressed with how organized both their armies and their capital were.

 

[Tyr]

Obvious troll is obvious
See:

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Source: Wikipedia (this board won't display .SVG images)[/QUOTE]

He said advanced civilizations. SS Africa had nations and civilizations but they generally weren't on a par with those in Eurasia.​

 

[archaeogeek]

He said advanced civilizations. SS Africa had nations and civilizations but they generally weren't on a par with those in Eurasia.

Advanced civilization = complex society = weird tautology but that's my POV as an archaeology student... Because at some point "advanced" becomes a bit a matter of beholder eyes.

 

[mats]

don't forget the zulu's!!!!

 

[Nusantara]

don't forget the zulu's!!!!

IMO the Zulu weren't even close to reaching the standards of other African kingdoms. Although to be fair most of them were located in Western Africa, as opposed to the Zulu who were in the south.

One POD that would be really awesome is to make the Sahara disappear, or at least make it a less formidable barrier. Because of it everyone outside it perceived sub-Saharan Africa as a mysterious, savage place. make the Sahara more habitable, and you open more trade routes, and thus let the African kingdoms expand. They were already advanced, but this improves the kingdoms even more, and could even lead to a modern world in which Africa is the center. (Don't forget the butterflies though)

 

[Thande]

I suspect if Ahmad al-Mansur hadn't invaded Songhai in 1590 we wouldn't be having this discussion. While the West African states were hampered in many ways relative to Eurasia, the perception of Africa as being a lawless wasteland wouldn't have come about without the chaos of the collapse of Songhai and the ensuing conflicts which also arguably made the slave trade possible.

The Congo Empire avoiding its time of troubles is also a likely candidate.

Interestingly though the idea of Africa as being backwards relative to Eurasia is more or less a 20th-century phenomenon and the perception has arguably increased since decolonisation. It's interesting to compare accounts of Africa made my moderns versus those made 100-150 years ago, when while the civilisations there are somewhat patronised, it's really no more than the Asian civilisations were. And of course for much of its history, Europe has had an inflated idea of how powerful and advanced Ethiopia was.

 

[Susano]

He said advanced civilizations. SS Africa had nations and civilizations but they generally weren't on a par with those in Eurasia.

So? Thats irrelevant. You can have advanced civilisations (i.e. sufficiently complex states with administrative hierarchy and all that, on the most basic level writing, and probably an organised religion as well) even with a great gap in scientific development.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Yeah, I was gonna say something like that. Really though, all you need is to have, say, the Benin Empire pick up Arabic script or even the Roman alphabet from the Dutch or Portuguese, and BAM! Ya got and advanced civilization in Africa to go alongside Mali, Songhai, etc. Seriously, they weren't barbarians or simple tribal people. Africa suffers even more than pre-Columbian America in this erroneous belief that they were all jungle-dwelling tribal people. Not very fair at all.

 

[tormsen]

I once floated the idea of the Sahel becoming a zone of trade and interaction, much like the Eurasian steppe, but fostering interaction between East Africa (Ethiopia, access to Asia) and West Africa. The main issue is there tended to be a consistent civilization around the Lake Chad region blocking this kind of interaction. If the range between the edge of the Sahara, and the edge of the tsetse zone had been just a bit wider, there might have been scope for more horse-nomadry, raiding, trade and other adventures. Which would have a big effect over the long term.

 

[Tyr]

So? Thats irrelevant. You can have advanced civilisations (i.e. sufficiently complex states with administrative hierarchy and all that, on the most basic level writing, and probably an organised religion as well) even with a great gap in scientific development.

I disagree. I have higher standards than that for an advanced civilization. The dark ages wouldn't count for instance.

As archaeogeek says though its silly to argue, to some people a civilization won't be advanced until it's mastered space travel, to others simple developments like writing or building permanent structures will be enough.

 

[TapReflex]

All non-Christians are savage barbarians and should be sentenced to death by burning on the stake. There is no way they could be civilized without Christianity.

I didn't mean Christianity. If you are using the Middle East or Europe as a comparison, when the population got large enough to sustain epidemics (not only of 'traditional' diseases, but also of STDs), there was a rapid turnover to monotheistic religions.
Christianity and Islam offered behaviors that help prevent death by disease.
A Totally new Religon would certainly evolve. Perhaps such a new religion would involve stricter sexual codes and a specific diet.

 

[Metro]

Create an advance civilization around the famous city of Timbuktu. City was famous for its gold and salt trade but more importantly for its books.

From the 11th century and onward, Timbuktu became an important port where goods from West Africa and North Africa were traded.

Goods coming the Mediterranean shores and salt were traded in Timbuktu for gold. The prosperity of the city attracted both black scholars, blacks merchants and Arabs traders from North Africa. Salt, books and gold were very much in demand at that time. Salt was came from Tegaza in the north, gold, from the immense gold mines of the Boure and Banbuk and books, were the refined work of the black scholars and scholars of the Sanhaja descent

In fact, Leo Africanus, a historian of the XVIth century wrote about Timbuktu:

There are many judges, doctors and clerics here, all receiving good salaries from King Askia Mohammed of the State of Songhay. He pays great respect to men of learning. There is a great demand for books, and more profit is made from the trade in books than from any other line of business.”

Some information - http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/history.html

Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4pJTaiev8k&feature=related

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Create an advance civilization around the famous city of Timbuktu. City was famous for its gold and salt trade but more importantly for its books.





Some information - http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/history.html

Already one. Mali. It was rich because it was in the Empire. Really though, this OP question is irrelevant as there already have been advanced civilizations in Africa, both north and south of the Sahara.

 

[Keenir]

All non-Christians are savage barbarians and should be sentenced to death by burning on the stake. There is no way they could be civilized without Christianity.

oh absolutely...and let me quote an authority on the subject:

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD-SHEDDING GOD!"

 

[Keenir]

I didn't mean Christianity. If you are using the Middle East or Europe as a comparison, when the population got large enough to sustain epidemics (not only of 'traditional' diseases, but also of STDs), there was a rapid turnover to monotheistic religions.
Christianity and Islam offered behaviors that help prevent death by disease.
A Totally new Religon would certainly evolve. Perhaps such a new religion would involve stricter sexual codes and a specific diet.

yes, because the Jews never died in plagues

He said advanced civilizations. SS Africa had nations and civilizations but they generally weren't on a par with those in Eurasia.

in the OP, he said on par with Rome and Sparta.

Forgive my noobiness. I'm fully aware of Great Zimbabwe, Mali, the many others. But a heavy helping of those empires were centered in Central Africa, and were heavily influenced by Muslim culture,

and that disqualifies them?

I'm basically asking if there's any way that Sub-Saharan Africa could have the technological and political sophistication of Europe or China or someplace like that throughout its history.

Europe didn't have political or technological sophistication throughout its history either!

or, to quote

"Behold, the awe and power of a fully functioning clay pot."