How long would the Confederate States need to last?

Feel free to suggest a better tin, since this one sucks. But my question- how long would the CSA have to survive before it becomes "established" as a separate nation; ie- if it collapses from within, eliminates slavery, or the slaves revolt and take over a la Haiti, or whatever have you and the country continues as an entity without rejoining the USA. East and West Germany rejoined after 50 years, the two Yemens rejoined after... well, that's debatable when they were actually united before (especially with the Haudramaut). How long before even for the slaves to see themselves as wanting to be rightfully citizens of the CSA and not as rightful citizens of the USA that were immorally held as slaves by rebels.
 
I guess the key might be the degree of international recognition and how integrated the CSA's economy becomes with the Great
Powers. The slavery issue probably won't keep the Brits or French from doing profitable business with them. Both powers had no problem trading with countries around the
world that were at least as disreputable as the CSA including for example, slave states like Brazil. So to answer the tin, IF the South can avoid hyperinflation and achieve a reasonably well-administered domestic polity I imagine that no more than ten years would be required. Call me cynical, but most of the time nations tend to overlook moral issues in other nations so long as the offending state doesn't prove disruptive in international affairs.
 
I guess the key might be the degree of international recognition and how integrated the CSA's economy becomes with the Great
Powers. The slavery issue probably won't keep the Brits or French from doing profitable business with them. Both powers had no problem trading with countries around the
world that were at least as disreputable as the CSA including for example, slave states like Brazil. So to answer the tin, IF the South can avoid hyperinflation and achieve a reasonably well-administered domestic polity I imagine that no more than ten years would be required. Call me cynical, but most of the time nations tend to overlook moral issues in other nations so long as the offending state doesn't prove disruptive in international affairs.

But I was questioning more about how long before the nation of the CSA would no longer join back with the USA if the issues of slavery were no longer there. Such as a massive slave revolt like Haiti and the nation is ruled by Blacks, would the Blacks want to join back with the USA (not looking into if the USA would want them back), or if the CSA government collapsed and a new government came to power and abolished slavery, would they want to rejoin? How long before the CSA citizens no longer identify with the USA as their "mother nation"... if that question makes sense. And maybe your answer of 10 years applies to what I'm saying.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I wouldn't be surprised if csa becomes a kind of austria analogue with the union playing the role of prussian dominated germany
 
Well at twenty years of Independence there would be a generation just assuming citizenship that would only think of the old Union as an adversary or at best an unfriendly neighbor.
By then, the standard means of government may have diverged so much that voluntary re-union might be unwanted by both sides.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
But I was questioning more about how long before the nation of the CSA would no longer join back with the USA if the issues of slavery were no longer there.
Not very long at all. Borders create national identities, and as we've seen from OTL the Confederacy created a separate semi-national identity despite never actually achieving full independence (where full independence is defined as "not in a massive war").

What helps here I think is that the South saw itself as the true heir to the "first" American Revolution, and thus saw the North as not being a representative of the ideal of America.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Wouldn't take long at all. Do note that there's a difference between "the CSA won't opt to re-join the USA" (which is there from the outset) and "the USA has lost all desire to re-absorb (parts of) the CSA in the event that the CSA falls apart" (which would take a bit longer).

Essentially, Southern identity was a very real thing even in OTL's brief CSA, just as @Saphroneth has pointed out. That will in all likelihood develop rapidly. If the CSA falls apart before the very end of the 19th century, one might see some northernmost and/or Appalachian regions being interested in re-joining the USA-- and by this point, the USA would still be interested in that. But the main part of the South would have no interest in doing so. It'll just become one or more independent successor state(s) to the CSA. A restored Republic of Texas is an obvious outcome, but even a successor state east of the Mississippi would hardly wish to re-join the USA. (Even a hypothetical 'New Afrika' established by a slave revolt would be more interested in ruling itself than submitting to the white-ruled USA.)

As you get to later points in time, the Southern identity will be so clearly developed that even if the country falls apart, not even border regions would be interested in joining a 'foreign country' like the USA. Nor would the USA be particularly interested in absorbing such regions, either. In a somewhat crude comparison, one could say that parts of the CSA wanting to join the USA is about as likely as New England wanting to outright re-join Britain in a scenario where the War of 1812 leads to a New England secession. That is to say: it's not likely at all. Certainly, some potential successor states would be inclined to be much closer to the USA, diplomatically, than others... but the idea of just giving up your independence to re-join the country you seceded from is pretty damn rare in history.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Essentially, Southern identity was a very real thing even in OTL's brief CSA, just as @Saphroneth has pointed out.
The comparison I like to use is the development of "American" identity from "Colonial" identity with the American Revolution. It even happened on a smaller scale with what's now Canada - the border reinforced the sense of a separate loyalist identity, defined as distinct from the "patriot" identity which was itself defined as distinct from the "British" identity.

In that sense, you might short-term expect a victorious South to adopt more measures and ideas to distinguish themselves from the (popular local view of the) North and vice versa. A more racially egalitarian North and a free-trade South?
 

Skallagrim

Banned
The comparison I like to use is the development of "American" identity from "Colonial" identity with the American Revolution. It even happened on a smaller scale with what's now Canada - the border reinforced the sense of a separate loyalist identity, defined as distinct from the "patriot" identity which was itself defined as distinct from the "British" identity.

In that sense, you might short-term expect a victorious South to adopt more measures and ideas to distinguish themselves from the (popular local view of the) North and vice versa. A more racially egalitarian North and a free-trade South?

Free trade South is almost inevitable, at least for some time, given that opposition to high tariffs and to government-funded 'internal improvements' had long been a Southern motivation. The North will likely go the other way, with the financial and (budding) undustrial power having a more overwhelming control over the nation. Without the agrarian South, the whole 'gold standard, (urban) industrial interests, high tariffs' versus 'silverites, agrarian populism, low tariffs' conflict of the late 19th century is going to go entirely in favour of the former, up North. William Jennings Bryan isn't going to be happy at all. The USA is going to be more of a William McKinley-style country, basically. Regarding racial equality, there is the realistic outcome of the North being more fair to African-Americans than in OTL, but more horrible to Native Americans... while that's reversed in the South. (But then, you know that, having pointed to such things in your own TL.)

In any case, the two countries will soon be very different in cultural, social, economic and political outlook. All of which makes re-unification less likely.
 
Not very long at all. Borders create national identities, and as we've seen from OTL the Confederacy created a separate semi-national identity despite never actually achieving full independence (where full independence is defined as "not in a massive war").

What helps here I think is that the South saw itself as the true heir to the "first" American Revolution, and thus saw the North as not being a representative of the ideal of America.

The idea that "borders created national identities" meshes poorly with history. For example, the history of Africa from the Scramble for colonies of the present. A lot of the borders were drawn in Europe, leaving people groups divided between different countries and/or sharing countries with rival or hostile people groups. The Rwanda genocide is a more extreme example of borders failing to create national identities.

For the Confederacy, there were men like Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee who believed their chief loyalty should be to the central Confederate government; while others, such as the Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, or the Governors of Georgia and North Carolina took more of a States Rights position. Additionally, the South was not a monoculture - most people who attended a cotillion would not be caught dead at a hoedown, and vice versa. The Tidewater of Virginia & North Carolina, the Appalachians, the Deep South, Louisiana, and Texas had differences in culture and political interests. Playing up the Union as a boogeyman would probably hold the Confederacy together, but it is not certain. Then there's the slaves, roughly 40% of the Confederate population. The Confederacy is not their nation as many of them showed during the Civil War.

Both sides of the Civil War saw themselves as the true heir to the American Revolution, but many Confederates also saw that Revolution as flawed.

"The prevailing ideas entertained by...most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.” Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." - Alexander Stephens
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
There already was an established "Southern" cultural and political identity distinct from the North when secession took place, so I really don't think it would take very long.
 
There already was an established "Southern" cultural and political identity distinct from the North when secession took place, so I really don't think it would take very long.

It would be interesting to see what happened in the border regions. For example, would Maryland, which swung pretty Southern culturally at the time, become a bastion of Dixie defiance in Yankeedom, or would it become the Yankee-est state as a reaction?
 

SsgtC

Banned
For the Confederacy, there were men like Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee who believed their chief loyalty should be to the central Confederate government

Do you have a source for that about Lee? I've always believed her was a proponent of States Rights over the Federal Government. It's why he refused command of the Union Army, because Virginia was seceeding. So for him to do a complete 180 in regards to the Confederacy would be, interesting
 

Deleted member 97083

The idea that "borders created national identities" meshes poorly with history. For example, the history of Africa from the Scramble for colonies of the present.
If so, then why is almost every language the remnant of a past empire or state? The territorial extent of Romance languages is a direct remnant of the Roman Empire. The extent of Arabic dialects is a direct remnant of the Caliphate. Chinese dialects are spoken in the area they are because that area has been ruled by Chinese dynasties for thousands of years. Turkic languages throughout Central Asia are there because of numerous tribal confederacies that pushed west from the Mongolian steppe. All the Balkan countries, Turkey, and Armenia had the territorial extent of their national identities and their languages determined by international borders chosen and ethnically cleansed from the late 19th to early 20th centuries. The national boundaries of almost every country in Eastern Europe were decided by the Soviets at the end of WW2, leading to a shift in many languages. The use of the French language in Canada is a direct remnant of French North America. Latin America would not speak Spanish were it not for the Spanish Empire. Nahuatl and Quechua in Mexico and Peru only survived as long as they have because they were each spread by vast empires. The Scandinavian languages are different from each other precisely because Norway, Denmark, and Sweden have been different countries for centuries. Korean follows the borders of old Joseon. Vietnamese follows the borders of many series of ancient Vietnamese dynasties. Thai is spoken in the areas it is because of the slow ancient expansion into Khmer territory.

Give it 100-200 years. I guarantee you that the borders of Africa will form concrete national identities in 80% of countries in Africa. There is currently a line between Francophone and non-Francophone countries in Africa. And in the Middle East, many of the colonial boundaries have already solidified into new national identities.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I meant the slave revolt ala Haiti portion, have no idea how I messed up quoting that. Agreed on your point, however.
Ah, I see.
Yes, the demographics militate against it.

According to the 1788 Census, Haiti's population consisted of nearly 25,000 whites, 22,000 free coloureds and 700,000 slaves, so the whole non-slave "controlling" population is outnumbered 14-15 times over by the slaves.

In the CSA, some individual counties got close to that bad (some were up at 13:1 slave:free) but the worst single state was South Carolina (57% slave) and of course the free population was the one which was armed.
 
Give it 100-200 years. I guarantee you that the borders of Africa will form concrete national identities in 80% of countries in Africa. There is currently a line between Francophone and non-Francophone countries in Africa. And in the Middle East, many of the colonial boundaries have already solidified into new national identities.

Vis. the Middle East, the borders were never actually as arbitrary as people like to make out. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Yemen, Oman, and the Gulf States all existed in more or less the same place before WWI, and a lot of the "arbitrary straight lines" are through thinly populated desert. Jordan was invented out of whole cloth, though, and they're showing exactly what you're saying.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Don't forget that, by quirk of historical accident, there already is a line pretty much defining the boundary of the Confederate culture with the non-Confederate culture. The Mason-Dixon line happened to be pretty close to the boundary of the range of malarial mosquitos (the area where more malaria-resistant Africans were able to endure the low lying ground near the rivers better than whites) and thus the area where slavery really took deep root. This may be why "Dixie" was a thing even before the Civil War.
 
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