How long for a city to crumble naturally ??

We've seen the movies and read the books & National Geographic mags: the intrepid explorers stumble onto the bones of a lost city, buried by erosion, overgrowth, decay and *lots* of time...

Okay, take a continental town or city from era of choice, then have the occupants walk away...

( Don't need ASBs, anthrax or nukes when you can have earthquake, plague, pestilence, drought, fall-out, arsenic and/or salt in the ground-water ;-)

Too cold, place is preserved if snow/ice doesn't crush it.

Too hot, and it sits --mummified-- for centuries, like Anasazi settlements, Silk Road caravanserais and those abandoned mining Towns.

In milder climates, wet & dry rot, termites & vermin, storm, bush-fires and plants growing from the cracks will slowly bring the buildings down...

In UK ( Stonehenge aside ;-) there's footings of plague-villages, and umpteen castles / houses in assorted degrees of oft-accidental preservation. I have visited several remote Roman-era 'Broch' towers still standing to ~~ 20 feet. 2000 years on, they have lost half their height, but would just need a simple roof for re-occupation...

How long to return a city to WildWood ? How long before you would have to look twice to see the artificial shapes as you walk by ??
 
There's no way to answer that. It is totally dependent upon the environment and the building materials. In general, though, abandoned sites become unlivable fairly quickly upon abandonment.

Nik said:
We've seen the movies and read the books & National Geographic mags: the intrepid explorers stumble onto the bones of a lost city, buried by erosion, overgrowth, decay and *lots* of time...

Okay, take a continental town or city from era of choice, then have the occupants walk away...

( Don't need ASBs, anthrax or nukes when you can have earthquake, plague, pestilence, drought, fall-out, arsenic and/or salt in the ground-water ;-)

Too cold, place is preserved if snow/ice doesn't crush it.

Too hot, and it sits --mummified-- for centuries, like Anasazi settlements, Silk Road caravanserais and those abandoned mining Towns.

In milder climates, wet & dry rot, termites & vermin, storm, bush-fires and plants growing from the cracks will slowly bring the buildings down...

In UK ( Stonehenge aside ;-) there's footings of plague-villages, and umpteen castles / houses in assorted degrees of oft-accidental preservation. I have visited several remote Roman-era 'Broch' towers still standing to ~~ 20 feet. 2000 years on, they have lost half their height, but would just need a simple roof for re-occupation...

How long to return a city to WildWood ? How long before you would have to look twice to see the artificial shapes as you walk by ??
 
Unlivable, all too soon... Unrecognisable ??

Megalithic construction could shrug off modest earthquakes, many trees and centuries of erosion to become hills in jungle.

Brick buildings can collapse into their cellars in a generation...

What about modern ferro-cement ??
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
There's no way to answer that. It is totally dependent upon the environment and the building materials. In general, though, abandoned sites become unlivable fairly quickly upon abandonment.

Hmmm, what about Anglo-Saxon London

Or others - keep the walls, build new houses out of old

Grey Wolf
 
In an article from Discover magazine.

Titled: Earth Without People
What would happen to our planet if the mighty hand of humanity simply disappeared?
By Alan Weisman

DISCOVER Vol. 26 No. 02 | February 2005 | Environment


The writer suggests that we have some information that can at least suggest what would happen. Specifically he points to Korea, in the 155-mile-long, 2.5-mile-wide mountainous Demilitarized Zone, or DMZ, set up by the armistice ending the Korean War. Aside from rare military patrols or desperate souls fleeing North Korea, humans have barely set foot in the strip since 1953. Before that, for 5,000 years, the area was populated by rice farmers who carved the land into paddies.

Using this as the timelline, he furthers identifies that a "new wilderness would consume cities, much as the jungle of northern Guatemala consumed the Mayan pyramids and megalopolises of overlapping city-states. From A.D. 800 to 900, a combination of drought and internecine warfare over dwindling farmland brought 2,000 years of civilization crashing down. Within 10 centuries, the jungle swallowed all."

But note, that this refers to pretty well built buildings, while much of modern city architecture is pretty ephemeral.

"There’s little soil to absorb it [groundwater] or vegetation to transpire it, and buildings block the sunlight that could evaporate it. With the power off, pumps that keep subways from flooding would be stilled. As water sluiced away soil beneath pavement, streets would crater. Within 20 years, the water-soaked steel columns that support the street above the East Side’s subway tunnels would corrode and buckle, turning Lexington Avenue into a river.

New York’s architecture isn’t as flammable as San Francisco’s clapboard Victorians, but within 200 years tons of leaf litter would overflow gutters as pioneer weeds gave way to colonizing native oaks and maples in city parks. A dry lightning strike, igniting decades of uncut, knee-high Central Park grass, would spread flames through town.

Unless an earthquake strikes New York first, bridges spared yearly applications of road salt would last a few hundred years before their stays and bolts gave way (last to fall would be Hell Gate Arch, built for railroads and easily good for another thousand years). Coyotes would invade Central Park, and deer, bears, and finally wolves would follow. Ruins would echo the love song of frogs breeding in streams stocked with alewives, herring, and mussels dropped by seagulls. Missing, however, would be all fauna that have adapted to humans. The invincible cockroach, an insect that originated in the hot climes of Africa, would succumb in unheated buildings. Without garbage, rats would starve or serve as lunch for peregrine falcons and red-tailed hawks. Pigeons would genetically revert back to the rock doves from which they sprang.

Old stone buildings in Manhattan, such as Grand Central Station or the Metropolitan Museum of Art, would outlast every modern glass box, especially with no more acid rain to pock their marble. Still, at some point thousands of years hence, the last stone walls—perhaps chunks of St. Paul’s Chapel on Wall Street, built in 1766 from Manhattan’s own hard schist—would fall. Three times in the past 100,000 years, glaciers have scraped New York clean, and they’ll do so again. The mature hardwood forest would be mowed down. On Staten Island, Fresh Kills’s four giant mounds of trash would be flattened, their vast accumulation of stubborn PVC plastic and glass ground to powder. After the ice receded, an unnatural concentration of reddish metal—remnants of wiring and plumbing—would remain buried in layers. The next toolmaker to arrive or evolve might discover it and use it, but there would be nothing to indicate who had put it there.

THE WILDS OF NEW YORK

If humans were to vanish from New York, how soon would nature take over? Scientists predict that within . . .

• 10 YEARS Sidewalks crack and weeds invade. Hawks and falcons flourish, as do feral cats and dogs. The rat population, deprived of human garbage, crashes. Cockroaches, which thrive in warm buildings, disappear. Cultivated carrots, cabbages, broccoli, and brussels sprouts revert to their wild ancestors.

• 20 YEARS Water-soaked steel columns supporting subway tunnels corrode and buckle. Bears and wolves invade Central Park.

• 50 YEARS Concrete chunks tumble from buildings, whose steel foundations begin to crumble. Indian Point nuclear reactors leak radioactivity into the Hudson River.

• 100 YEARS Oaks and maples re-cover the land.

• 300 YEARS Most bridges collapse.

• 1,000 YEARS Hell Gate Bridge, built to bring the railroad across the East River, finally falls.

• 10,000 YEARS Indian Point nuclear reactors continue to leak radioactivity into the Hudson River.

• 20,000 YEARS Glaciers move relentlessly across the island of Manhattan and its environs, scraping the landscape clean.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Unless an earthquake strikes New York first, bridges spared yearly applications of road salt would last a few hundred years before their stays and bolts gave way (last to fall would be Hell Gate Arch, built for railroads and easily good for another thousand years). Coyotes would invade Central Park, and deer, bears, and finally wolves would follow. Ruins would echo the love song of frogs breeding in streams stocked with alewives, herring, and mussels dropped by seagulls. Missing, however, would be all fauna that have adapted to humans. The invincible cockroach, an insect that originated in the hot climes of Africa, would succumb in unheated buildings. Without garbage, rats would starve or serve as lunch for peregrine falcons and red-tailed hawks. Pigeons would genetically revert back to the rock doves from which they sprang.

This is the most fascinating paragraph as it undermines a lot of current myths

Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Justin Green said:
Where the hell are these wolves going to come from?

Think about timespans

They'll spread from West and North in the specified time period

They have no natural predator so their only bound is nature

Grey Wolf
 
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This is a temperate forested area with lot's of rain. It does leave open the question about other climate areas. For example, building in desert areas would last longer, very wet tropical areas, shorter.
 
Justin Green said:
Where the hell are these wolves going to come from?

Dogs - remember the dog is just a wolf that gets along well with us, left alone, they become wolves again.
 
Justin Green said:
Where the hell are these wolves going to come from?

The wolf population in the United States' lower forty-eight states numbers between 500 and 1,600, with an additional 1,500 to 1,750 located in Minnesota. The wolf population in Alaska is between 5,000 and 15,000, and the number of wolves in Canada ranges between 52,000 and 60,000.

Everything you always wanted to know about wolves but were afraid to ask....

The province of Ontario has roughly 9000 wolves. Quebec has about the same. That's 18,000 right there. Assume that they reproduce at just a very modest 2% per year, they'll be up to 22,000 in just 10 years.

All you need is a herd or two of elk or deer or whatever to wander their way into the NYC area and the wolves will follow....
 
The last traces?

Hundreds of thousands of years after the last human vanishedfrom now, I'd expect the Great Pyramids to be the last really visible remnants on earth. What could be more enduring than a massive heap of stone in a desert?
That, however, is on Earth. It will take millions of years, if I inderstand correctly, for the geosynchronous satelites to re-enter the atmosphere, and the artifacts left on the moon may well last just as long. I suspect these will be the last readily available traces of our civilization.
I say readyily available, for the space probes drifting out of our solar system may well never be found--but they could out last the sun itself, deep in the cold lonliness of interstellar space.
 
It is the sort of topic that would be interesting to members of the board.

I just worry that Doctor What might want to try some empirical examinations of one or more cities he determines to be surplus to our current needs. :D
 
Quite interesting

And relevant (to me at least), as with my Mozambique story suffering Writer's Blockade, I've been mentally kicking around a scenario in which some mad tree-hugger turned loose a plague that killed off all humans and their domestic animals (dogs, cats, horses, cattle, goats, and sheep...), leaving just himself (of course!) and two others (the progotatinsts) who happened to be somehow resistant.

Of course it then takes an ASB twist when they are found by the Battlestar Galactica... :D


Thought: wouldn't the leaky reactors kinda counteract some bits of the "reclaiming"?
 
There a number of 'ghost towns' in Arizona & California built in the late 1800's. Many came into existance because of mining activities and when business got bad everyone left. They seem to hold up fairly well. Termites do damage them-you have to be careful walking on the wooden sidewalks or floors for example.
In the case of these ghost towns there isn't a lot of structures with a long lifespan, everything was wood. After a few major storms or a fire, they will disappear and with them most if not all traces.
 
RE: Quite Interesting

Have you read Tom Clancy's 'Rainbow Six'? Some mad 'tree-huggers' try to let modify the ebola virus to make it more robust, with a longer incubaion period.

They planned to release the virus at the olympics closing ceremony. Infecting millions who then go home and infect others.

There's a cool start for you're scenario.
 

Burton

Banned
"Modern ferro-cement"? Many buildings in inner city areas built 1950-80 in the UK are having to be be torn down because of "concrete cancer" caused by inferior building techniques and cheap high alkali cement
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=39689

If left to themselves, whole neighbourhoods, especially "high rise", would have literally disintegrated without trace in 50 years.
 
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Well, there is a place where we are performing an experiment to see what happens to a modern city when all the humans are gone. I refer to the city of Pripyat in the Ukraine, site of the Chernobyl reactor. The city's been empty, aside from a few visitors once and a while, for almost two decades now. It'll probably be another 900 years before anyone can come back. Right now, from the pictures I've seen, everything's still standing.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Norman said:
In an article from Discover magazine.
Fascinating article. It reminds me of a series of paintings I once saw, depicting the ruins of Seattle reclaimed by nature. Also the last chapters of Day of the Triffids by John Wyndham describe the gradual decay of depopulated London, as the few survivors have retreated to the countryside and only come to town for the odd foray--the most poignant part of the book IMO.
But it's true that the speed at which a city crumbles depends on the type of environment it was built in to begin with. Sad to say, but Las Vegas would probably outlast New York by several decades if not centuries. Worst of all is the hot and humid environment of tropical jungles such as the ones in Central America and South-East Asia; Angkor Vat is only the most famous of numerous former settlements that were swallowed by vegetation within years of being abandoned.
 
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