How can we improve Ireland's history?

[DónalCam]

Avoid the Norman Conquest. Saxon England had reasonable relations with the Celtic powers of the Irish Sea and without land-hungry Norman knights invading there will be less direct links between the two.

However, that still leaves the problem of inter-Irish strife which seems to be feature of the place (perhaps there's something in the water ). Scotland did manage to have at least a nominal central government which if it didn't fully control the country at least had those who opposed it recognised as being in rebellion rather than as independent powers. So some sort of unification under a, at least nominally, recognised dynasty would probably help - how that's done is probably more difficult.

Nice one a chara; casual jocular racism is racism nonetheless.

There have been numerous potential turning points in Ireland's sorry history:
- Keep Brian Boróimhe alive 10-20 years post-Clontarf- speculative
- Battle of Baginbun- even speculativer
- Battle of Kinsale, or del Aguila seeking more sensible landfall, a real sickener. A little more support from e.g. the Burkes or O Briens during the Nine Years' War. Victory at Kinsale may have turned a few more
- Phelim O Neill's plot to seize Dublin Castle succeeds
- A tad more pragmatism from the idealists in the Confederation
Et, mais bien sur, l'Expédition d'Irlande.

But none of these would change the macro geopolitics of being a small island, with limited natural resources and negligible mineral wealth, located -and isolated- on the far side of a substantially larger one with an abundance of same, and being of vital strategic importance to it.
It would have taken a 16th century Spanish or 18th century French victory of immense magnitude to prise Ireland out of England's grasp in any treaty. The latter is to all intents and purposes ASB.

 

[Imperator Maximilianius]

Nice one a chara; casual jocular racism is racism nonetheless.

There have been numerous potential turning points in Ireland's sorry history:
- Keep Brian Boróimhe alive 10-20 years post-Clontarf- speculative
- Battle of Baginbun- even speculativer
- Battle of Kinsale, or del Aguila seeking more sensible landfall, a real sickener. A little more support from e.g. the Burkes or O Briens during the Nine Years' War. Victory at Kinsale may have turned a few more
- Phelim O Neill's plot to seize Dublin Castle succeeds
- A tad more pragmatism from the idealists in the Confederation
Et, mais bien sur, l'Expédition d'Irlande.

But none of these would change the macro geopolitics of being a small island, with limited natural resources and negligible mineral wealth, located -and isolated- on the far side of a substantially larger one with an abundance of same, and being of vital strategic importance to it.
It would have taken a 16th century Spanish or 18th century French victory of immense magnitude to prise Ireland out of England's grasp in any treaty. The latter is to all intents and purposes ASB.

You're obviously very knowledgeable about Irish history.

 

[Pangur]

I don't know much about Ireland's history but having the entire island under the reign of a high king would probably help matters.

I see this as the critical starting point and perhaps having the resultant kingdom very open to refugees. Where I am going with that it that craftsmen and what not find refuge in Ireland bringing their knowledge with them. I would pick a successful rebellion in 1798 as one of the best PODs for this -OK so no High King but a united Ireland never the less

 

[Imperator Maximilianius]

I see this as the critical starting point and perhaps having the resultant kingdom very open to refugees. Where I am going with that it that craftsmen and what not find refuge in Ireland bringing their knowledge with them. I would pick a successful rebellion in 1798 as one of the best PODs for this -OK so no High King but a united Ireland never the less

Refugees might be a good idea. After all, they worked wonders for Rome.

 

[DónalCam]

You're obviously very knowledgeable about Irish history.

Thanks- 'charity begins at home'

 

[vizzer]

If there is an established Irish dynasty with at least nominal sovereignty over the whole island it will probably lead to marriages with at least the royal houses of England and Scotland. This may eventually lead to the equivalent of a 'James I of England, VI of Scotland and III of Ireland' which would give a rather different 'Union of the Crowns' and a different view of Ireland's relation with the rest of the British Isles.

Of course this could go a different way with perhaps a 'Mary Queen of Ireland' who has a successful marriage to the Dauphin of France with Ireland ending up as an appendage of the French crown. By this time the butterflies will be madly fluttering away.

 

[vizzer]

Another option with a simpler POD is 'Henry VIII gets his divorce' and England remains a Catholic country for at least another generation. This probably butterflies away the Protestant Ascendancy and Ulster Plantations in Ireland.

And in Ireland Protestantism & Nationalism being linked together (yes I know in OTL some of the prominent early Nationalists were Protestant) as even when England & Ireland shared a religion the Irish were still regarded with disdain at best and otherwise as a bunch of rebellious bog-trotters or worse. These attitudes are unlikely to change and an absentee landlord is likely to be equally grasping whether Catholic or Protestant.

Sorry the OP was to try and improve things & while this changes them I doubt there is much improvement.

 

[Sian]

even call between a solid unification of Ireland under whomever is able to pull it off, and a much more disunited England. Say, due to a incomplete Norman conquest, leaving the Anglo-Danish lords in Northern England either de-facto Indepedenent, optionally with a completing claim on the splintered crown of England, or a partialy failed Harrying of the north, leaving them at a constant simmering, revolting at the drop of a hat

 

[Janprimus]

If a native dynasty fails to establish a monarchy, which unites the island, then maybe Vikings will.

A native dynasty could be better, but a Viking dynasty would eventually turn native too.

IMHO by the time of the Norman control of England is complete, this would be too late, but before that, there might be other contenders too.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Nice one a chara; casual jocular racism is racism nonetheless.

Errr... The same people in place A and B, in A the country is fractious, often in civil war, and rarely unified an any real sense, while in B the same people form a functional centralized kingdom.

Sorry, how is this racist? It's the same people.

 

[DónalCam]

Errr... The same people in place A and B, in A the country is fractious, often in civil war, and rarely unified an any real sense, while in B the same people form a functional centralized kingdom.

Sorry, how is this racist? It's the same people.

Tarring an entire people with the same negative brush.

Sorry, how is this not racist? Well, actually, it's not. Since the original comment says 'place' rather than 'race', it is locationist.

I calls the neologism!

 

[Abdominalz]

If Henry II had lost the civil war between him and Stephen of Blois, known as the anarchy, royal authority would not have recovered from the decentralisation that took place during the anarchy, with England remaining little more than a patchwork of different principalities. Also without Henry II being king, he would not have been in a position to conquer Ireland. Without this, Richard de Clare and his other Cambro-Normans manage to build up their own independent Hiberno-Norman Kingdom in Ireland ruled from Dublin. Ireland therefore is brought out of the Iron and Viking Ages and into the 12th century without compromising its sovereignty. Although the invaders would have probably adopted Irish, possibly faster than the Normans in England, Brehon Law would be no more