How can Portugal become relevant after the loss of Brazil?
- Thread starter ToasterOven456
- Start date
We would need to get enough people from the nobility and commercial classes to flee from Napoleon to Brazil, though I doubt they would be able to due to the Royals leaving with so many ships. Need to find a way to have the standard of living in Brazil to be seen as adequate. And maybe to find ways to grow cocoa and spices in Brazil and Africa. Actually, I wonder if there would be a way to have Kongo, Mbundu, and the other two or three kingdom in Angola to stick around.
Ahh, there is an idea. We need to go far back enough to have it where the Portuguese don’t overturn the Papacy appointing Africans to be bishops down there, or to murder the African prince or bishop who came to visit Portugal. I forget who. Might not give the Portuguese colonies, but if they are associated with Christianity, being friends to the local rulers, and bringing prosperity etc then they might expect future trade down the line and for Portuguese to be a lingua franca, at least for those who go to Portugal, Brazil, or some local Jesuit university for education. We also should do something about the Portuguese kicking out local Indians from a Christian caste who were trying to join a convent. I am starting to lean on thinking that if the Portuguese (government, etc) did not take the two extremes of caring only about money or about keeping Portuguese noblemen in charge of everything, you could end up like with the British, were there are some annoyances frommthe past, but still a lot of pride and fondness from independent countries as being treated as independent and equal partners to their former colonial masters. The residents of Portugal's holdings in India didn’t mind the Portuguese too much near the end, which was part of why the Indians stopped allowing the locals to visit the imprisoned Portuguese after Indian invaded.
From wikipedia
Among the regular stops of the India Run, the island of Mozambique and the Bay of Angra do Heroísmo in the Azores , on the island of Terceira , reached strategic importance, becoming one of the meeting points for vessels eventually strayed on the outward journey, as well as an anchorage port. of those who were eventually late and missed the monsoon . For this reason, a powerful fortification ( Fortress of São Sebastião ) and a hospital were built on the island of Mozambique .
For prestige more than anything else. African colonialism didn't bring the profits many proclaim, only when neocolonialism took place the profits surged, administration of such large territories was expensive, much more than proxy wars and bribes to corrupt legislators.
Of course one must try to understand the mindset of the times and the paradigm was that effective control would bring unexpensive raw materials to feed the industrial growth.
I'm just scratching the surface since this is way to complex.
Portugal would likely have a bigger presence in Mozambique, maybe Angola and India too. Perhaps getting to what Portugal was only doing around the time of the Berlin Conference earlier?
I’d say the whole empire. It may not be much but they sure will get a lot more in Africa and Asia
Yeah the portuguese always had an odd interest for the concept of submarines
I mean what other country had people wanting to rescue Napoleon from St Helena with one?
I think there's a map going around in which Portugal still controls Cabinda, in Angola. Controlling that area allows them to have a steady income from the oil industry, which the creator of map speculated that could have been used to even organize a FIFA World Cup.
Both of those things (having big oil revenue and organizing a football world cup) would have probably made Portugal as relevant as it could have been — short of hosting the seat of the United Nations instead of New York City, somehow.
I’ve thought about this and I think I came to an answer. Knowing Portugal, it’s going to be focused on the Pink Map. However, Britain exists, so that’s a problem. Best way is just taking the British offer oh Zambia and Malawi (and abandoning Zimbabwe) because then Britain won’t harass them later down the line (supposing the India money keeps the colony alive)
except in the 1840s, Britain's still trying to get a handle on her problem at the Cape and with the Xhosa on the frontier. They're not really in a position to do anything as far north as Zimbabwe. The German mission society has just landed at Windhoek/Walvis Bay in 1842 though
African diseases were a real killer until later. Portugal would have to invent many cures before going into the hinterland
I think "A Lusophone World" is the work that handled that question the best
But if you ask me personally, I think Portugal's position in Europe is inherently disvantageous
Not only it is vulnerable to attacks from Spain & France by land but very much on a choke hold by the british, not to mention earthquakes - in fact we saw that destroy Portugal's infraestructure before with the burning of Lisbon, hard to industrialize when you have all of that going against you
This is also why, besides losing Brazil, Portugal also lost a golden chance when it moved it's government back to the metropolis - with the capital in Brazil they had all of the continent to expand and grow it's economy, far away from the european battlefield
But I dont think that opportunity was completely lost, with the precedent of moving to Brazil in mind(and taking into account how IOTL France estabilished a government-in-exile during WWII) I think its very possible that you could force Portugal to re-do that move under the right circunstances
So say, if their government got overthrown by a revolution or military coup, I think a government-in-exile would be on the cards
Lets say the portuguese dont catch the stupid virus and dont move the capital to Azores or London for racism sake, sticking to either Angola or East Timor
I think that would give "Portugal" a good place with a lot of space to expand and modernize, as long they keep favour from their british "allies"(and hopefully dont lose their african colonies to them this time around if they go with Angola)
That way, in time, the Exiled Portugal could become a Great Power in the region of the colony it now resides
This arrangement of course doesnt have to remain that way forever, in case the government in Lisbon falls you could have a re-unification of the mainland country with it's exile state where both the metropolis and the former colony remain equals as part of the Empire in a union of sorts(you know, like what they should have done with Brazil), with the former colony benefiting from having a foothold in Europe while european Portugal benefits from having a industrialized Great Power within it's Empire - thus remaining relevant
And before you ask, yes Im suggesting this partly for the memes of having Portugal flee from Europe again
But if you ask me personally, I think Portugal's position in Europe is inherently disvantageous
Not only it is vulnerable to attacks from Spain & France by land but very much on a choke hold by the british, not to mention earthquakes - in fact we saw that destroy Portugal's infraestructure before with the burning of Lisbon, hard to industrialize when you have all of that going against you
This is also why, besides losing Brazil, Portugal also lost a golden chance when it moved it's government back to the metropolis - with the capital in Brazil they had all of the continent to expand and grow it's economy, far away from the european battlefield
But I dont think that opportunity was completely lost, with the precedent of moving to Brazil in mind(and taking into account how IOTL France estabilished a government-in-exile during WWII) I think its very possible that you could force Portugal to re-do that move under the right circunstances
So say, if their government got overthrown by a revolution or military coup, I think a government-in-exile would be on the cards
Lets say the portuguese dont catch the stupid virus and dont move the capital to Azores or London for racism sake, sticking to either Angola or East Timor
I think that would give "Portugal" a good place with a lot of space to expand and modernize, as long they keep favour from their british "allies"(and hopefully dont lose their african colonies to them this time around if they go with Angola)
That way, in time, the Exiled Portugal could become a Great Power in the region of the colony it now resides
This arrangement of course doesnt have to remain that way forever, in case the government in Lisbon falls you could have a re-unification of the mainland country with it's exile state where both the metropolis and the former colony remain equals as part of the Empire in a union of sorts(you know, like what they should have done with Brazil), with the former colony benefiting from having a foothold in Europe while european Portugal benefits from having a industrialized Great Power within it's Empire - thus remaining relevant
And before you ask, yes Im suggesting this partly for the memes of having Portugal flee from Europe again
I’ve always said Portugal-Brazil was a mistake, Portugal-Angola though… Seriously if you make the capital Luanda but Lisbon being more important I think it could work
Doesn’t mean Britain still doesn’t push the cape to Cairo plan, but it would leave them in a much weaker position, so much so that say Portugal moves in
Yeah I dont think it was meant to be
It would be very curious
I forgot where but I read that while colonialism was unprofitable for the government, it is a way of subsidizing the private sector with captive markets & cheap resources.
TBH, by the 1840s/1850s the traditional English alliance hadn't so much helped as hamstrung Portugal's development (see the Revolt of the Marshals, backed by Britain because she felt the Portuguese government was becoming too anti-English). And given how Britain later sold Portugal down the river without a second thought, I would say Portugal would be better leaving what was like a bad relationship. Especially when it saw how Britain and France were both keeping a boot on Spain's throat in the same period