HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious Converted Earlier?

Under Article VIII of the Washington naval treaty HMS Furious was, due to having started her conversion before the 12th November 1921, considered an experimental ship and therefore exempt from the rule of having to be 20 years old before being allowed to be replaced. Since her two sisters HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious didn't start their conversions to being aircraft carriers until 1924 they couldn't be replaced until 1944.

So is there any way to get the Royal Navy to start their conversions around the same time as HMS Furious in the following months and get in under the wire? If they did decide to go for a 'big bang' approach what does that do for negotiations in Washington?
 
So is there any way to get the Royal Navy to start their conversions around the same time as HMS Furious in the following months and get in under the wire? If they did decide to go for a 'big bang' approach what does that do for negotiations in Washington?
It's simple. The RN recognizes that these large fast ships are useless as gun ships after their first used in action and takes them in hand for conversion early in 1919 suspending work in 1920 until trials with HMS Eagle and Hermes are complete in order to refine the design based on experience.

Alternatively they're taken in hand in 1917 for conversion instead of HMS Cavendish (Vindictive) and the future HMS Eagle.
 
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It's simple. The RN recognizes that these large fast ships are useless as gun ships after they're first used in action and takes them in hand for conversion early in 1919 suspending work in 1920 until trials with HMS Eagle and Hermes are complete in order to refine the design based on experience.

I've seen suggestions on the All The World Battlecruisers board that they could actually have been quite useful if used properly and using the longer range of the 15" guns.

On the other hand I would prefer them to be converted sooner, possibly after the hulls are launched and before any superstructure etc is added. What you would get is very debatable but there suggestions have already been made in the UK and elsewhere that could see a full length flight deck carrier.
 
I've seen suggestions on the All The World Battlecruisers board that they could actually have been quite useful if used properly and using the longer range of the 15" guns.
The Large Light Cruisers were built for the wrong navy. Great for hit and run raids on an enemy's coast or commerce raiding, useless for the RN defending against such things. Too lightly armoured and built for a fleet action and too heavily armed not to be used in one, with catastrophic results if they're hit.
 
If three ships of the same class were under construction at the same time they would not be considered experimental.
A good argument, although I could see the Royal Navy claiming they simply had a lot of experimenting that needed doing. Whether they could keep a straight face whilst doing so is another matter. :)
 
A good argument, although I could see the Royal Navy claiming they simply had a lot of experimenting that needed doing. Whether they could keep a straight face whilst doing so is another matter. :)
Furious is built with separate flying off and landing on decks 1917, Courageous with two hanger decks and a flush flight deck early 1918, Glorious with two hanger decks and a starboard island and funnel early 1919. 3 sister ships converted to three different designs evolving into a true fleet carrier. All are experimental ships, with the Glorious being the most successful. Furious and Courageous rebuilt to match Glorious after trials are completed.

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Futrious is built with separate flying off and landing on decks 1917, Courageous with two hanger decks and a flush flight deck early 1918, Glorious with two hanger decks and a starboard island and funnel early 1919. 3 sister ships converted to three different designs evolving into a true fleet carrier. Furious and Courageous rebuilt to match Glorious after trials are completed.

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I had something similar in mind but starting off with furious as a single hanger carrier with the abliity to add a second hanger later.

Courageous and Glorious were launched before Furious so if its accepted sooner the idea behind them is wrong it could be one or both of them that gets converted first.

Edit 2 - I want a sister to Furious, we'll call her Formidable, to convert in place of Admiral Cochrane or Cavendish.
 
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I had something similar in mind but starting off with furious as a single hanger carrier with the abliity to add a second hanger later.
The way I see it is the Grand Fleet was desperate for organic air support to replace Campania a.s.a.p. so did a rushed conversion with Furious, a more thorough job with Courageous, once they had time to think about what's needed and refined the design with Glorious.

Historically you can see this process with first Furious and Vindictive, then Argus and Finally Eagle and Hermes. (What can we do now? What will do it better? How do we address the problems exposed by the first two steps?)
 
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The way I see it is the Grand Fleet was desperate for organic air support to replace Campania a.s.a.p. so did a rushed conversion with Furious, a more thorough job with Courageous, once they had time to think about what's needed and refined the design with Glorious.

Historically you can see this process with first Furious and Vindictive, then Argus and Finally Eagle and Hermes. (What can we do now? What will do it better? How do we address the problems exposed by the first two steps?)

Sections from Guy Robbins’ ‘The Aircraft Carrier Story 1908-1945’

‘It soon became clear that Jellicoe required more carriers. Williamson visited the CinC on 17th April and gave him the Air Department plans. Jellicoe was primed to ask for Wahine’s conversion and the three new carriers. He also first suggested that the Glorious class carry some seaplanes. Jellicoe wanted a seaplane carrier laid down at once since the only satisfactory fleet carriers were those, which flew machines off and onto the deck. On 22 June, after Jutland, Jellicoe asked for two more carriers because seaplanes had shown their value in a fleet action.’

‘Jellicoe’s main problem – a perennial one - was the accurate reporting of the bearing, course and disposition of the enemy fleet which required experienced observers. He told the Admiralty that the seaplanes flown from Campania’s deck during the exercise had proved of great use, and on 20 July again asked for the Glorious class to be fitted with seaplanes. He did not press for more carriers, but possibly wanted these two ships converted because of their poor gunnery capabilities. ‘

‘Meanwhile in response to Jellicoe’s requests for Holmes’s (Lieutenant Gerard (RNVR)) design to be built and the Glorious class to carry seaplanes, Tudor asked for DNC and DAS to report on Holmes’s design (a design which allowed ships, without stopping, to land aeroplanes aft plus launch and recover large torpedo-seaplanes on a slipway aft). The delay (13 May – 22 June) before the DNC replied was another factor in the lack of action on carrier design in the summer. The problem was that after Jutland the DNC was overworked, assessing battle damage and organising large numbers of repairs.

‘The DAS and DNC agreed that the Glorious class would be delayed by modifications to carry some seaplanes, but they could have been ready for operations in 1917. They were large ships with plenty of room, and if their air arrangements proved inadequate (probably) they could have been converted in turn without depriving the fleet of carriers. No one asked Jellicoe whether the delay was acceptable, nor did he volunteer to sacrifice their gunnery potential (in Furious case very poor) as Beatty did in 1917. Glorious and Courageous were commissioned in October 1916 and changes so late required large and costly (in time and resources) alterations. Furious commissioned later, but Jellicoe did not realise she had only two 18” guns, of little value.’
 
Furious is built with separate flying off and landing on decks 1917, Courageous with two hanger decks and a flush flight deck early 1918, Glorious with two hanger decks and a starboard island and funnel early 1919. 3 sister ships converted to three different designs evolving into a true fleet carrier. All are experimental ships, with the Glorious being the most successful. Furious and Courageous rebuilt to match Glorious after trials are completed.
I might not go for that exact timeline but converting the three ships to three differing designs is an interesting idea, and hard for other countries to argue that it isn't an experimental programme. Unspoken is that the UK can modify them later to the best design. The question then becomes how does this possibly affect other countries positions at the negotiations?
 
The question then becomes how does this possibly affect other countries positions at the negotiations?
The big problem would be the clause in the treaty allowing Britain, Japan and the US to each convert two capital ships into carriers. I just can't see the other powers allowing Britain that option with three large fast carriers already in service or being rebuilt, in addition to Argus, Eagle and Hermes. If the British want ships to match the American and Japanese conversions they'll have to build them from scratch sacrificing Argus and Eagle to do it. (Hermes as a purpose built ship is faster and more useful despite her small air group)
 
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Under Article VIII of the Washington naval treaty HMS Furious was, due to having started her conversion before the 12th November 1921, considered an experimental ship and therefore exempt from the rule of having to be 20 years old before being allowed to be replaced. Since her two sisters HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious didn't start their conversions to being aircraft carriers until 1924 they couldn't be replaced until 1944.

So is there any way to get the Royal Navy to start their conversions around the same time as HMS Furious in the following months and get in under the wire? If they did decide to go for a 'big bang' approach what does that do for negotiations in Washington?
I assume the intent is to scrap the experimental carriers for more tonnage in the 30s? Nice in theory but the UK never built up to the tonnage limit anyway so becomes a moot point.
 
Under Article VIII of the Washington naval treaty HMS Furious was, due to having started her conversion before the 12th November 1921, considered an experimental ship and therefore exempt from the rule of having to be 20 years old before being allowed to be replaced. Since her two sisters HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious didn't start their conversions to being aircraft carriers until 1924 they couldn't be replaced until 1944.

So is there any way to get the Royal Navy to start their conversions around the same time as HMS Furious in the following months and get in under the wire? If they did decide to go for a 'big bang' approach what does that do for negotiations in Washington?

Article VIII​

The replacement of aircraft-carriers shall be effected only as prescribed in Chapter II, Part 3, provided, however, that all aircraft-carrier tonnage in existence or building on 12 November 1921 shall be considered experimental, and may be replaced, within the total tonnage limit prescribed in Article VII, without regard to its age.

Since HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious were clearly in existence (even if not as CV..) on 12 November 1921 does the RN not just have to claim they are want to replace them? The treaty say "or building" and the 6 conversion (C,G,L,S,A & K) would arguably be "or building" for that purpose as the hulls did already exist a had been built, just a matter of how much RN/GB wants to replace them?

The real issue if that they would need to replace all the smaller ships first and build far more ships so need more money...
 
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There is another cheat available to the RN if all three very large light cruisers are converted to experimental aircraft carriers.
The cheat is that unlike capital ships (battle cruisers and Battleships in the treaty) age expire air craft carriers do not need to be scrapped. So by removing a section of the flightdeck, as the Americans did the Langley, you can keep the hulls alive for later recommissioning if the need arises!
Now that is a win for the RN post Munich crisis in 1938.
 
The big problem would be the clause in the treaty allowing Britain, Japan and the US to each convert two capital ships into carriers. I just can't see the other powers allowing Britain that option with three large fast carriers already in service or being rebuilt, in addition to Argus, Eagle and Hermes.
Have Japan and the US be allowed to covert two capital ships into aircraft carriers as a way of maintaining balance between them and the UK? I might be reading things wrong but these ships would come under the 20 year replacement rule, so the UK would have a potential advantage but not a noticeable one.


I assume the intent is to scrap the experimental carriers for more tonnage in the '30s? Nice in theory but the UK never built up to the tonnage limit anyway so becomes a moot point.
Well yes, but since the whole point of this site is to look at how things might depart from our timeline…
 
Have Japan and the US be allowed to covert two capital ships into aircraft carriers as a way of maintaining balance between them and the UK?
They did otl. Lexington and Saratoga for the USN and Akagi and Kaga for the IJN. All four were larger than the Courageous class. The point I was obviously failing to make is that with all three Courageous class already either converted or under conversion during the treaty negotiations the challenge is going to be getting the UK to agree to the US and Japanese conversions of redundant part built capital ships into oversized carriers while the UK get's nothing in return.

The American and Japanese ships were all 36-38,000 tons compared to 23-25,000 tons for the Courageous class.
 
Provided that UK is still getting their newbuild quota of (IIRC) 27,000 tonners, as well as converting the trio, that gives them up to nine vessels from 1924(ish). Given the usual raisôn for building 6" cruisers to spread them around the Empire, it is rational that a similar policy of numbers>tonnage could apply here.
 
Courageous and Glorious were launched before Furious so if its accepted sooner the idea behind them is wrong it could be one or both of them that gets converted first.
I see it as Courageous and Glorious being completed as planned but as soon as initial trials are completed it's realised just how flawed they are so they're side lined. In the mean time Furious still incomplete is taken in hand for a quick and dirty conversion to answer Jellicoe's desperate pleas for more air cover. Then Courageous is taken in hand for a more thorough conversion along the same lines as planned for Argus and finally Glorious is taken in hand for a similar conversion but they decide to experiment with an island.
 
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