Hitler kidnapped by the Italians at Feltre, 1943

basileus

I here invite you, gentlmemen of this noble Board, to muse on this hypothesis: that the treacherous Italians (my fellow countrymen, that is), in order to solve the Gordian knot of their alliance with Nazi Germany as the Allies were already avancing deep into Sicily, decide for a desperate move. The conspirators around the Crown, without the knowledge of His Majesty the King Victor Emmanuel III, stage the kidnapping of Adolf Hitler and the arrest of Benito Mussolini on the occasion of the two leaders' meeting at Feltre, on July 18th, 1943. Thus anticipating the "legal" proceedings of the Great Council of Fascism of OTL.
The coup, to be executed with the discreet assistance of a battalion of Carabinieri (if necessary, to overrun any SS escorting the Fuehrer), is staged by general Ambrosio, the Army Chief of Staff, as an act capable of paralyzing Nazi Germany and give Italy a few days' time to surrender to the Allies in an orderly way, while bartering the most important prisoner on Earth in exchange for "reasonable" concessions as the survival of the monarchy, amnesty for war crimes, non-occupation of Italy beyond Sicily, preservation of what reamins of the Regia Marina (fleet), etc.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Interesting, looking at a timeline of this as its just after Kursk turned nasty for the Germans.

Feltre would seem to be North of Venice, so its going to be within German aerial and motorised capabilities to get there quickly, in addition to whatever force Hitler took with him (unable to find a source on that)

If Hitler is kidnapped he needs to be moved at once and as far South as possible. It wouldn't surprise me if what remains of German paratroops are not deployed in an effort to prevent this.

It strikes me that Ambrosio is going to be trying to do two things at once here - overthrow Mussolini and kidnap the Fuhrer, and its going to be a difficult act balancing it. He can't call upon any formations whose loyalty is suspect (ie suspected of being too loyal to Mussolini) and unless the king comes right out and backs him the loyalty of other units is going to be wavering and confused

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_12.htm

Appears to raise a couple of questions

-1- What is the level of German forces already within Italy, and where are they ? IIRC another webpage I read (but then closed) mentioned something like 40000 near to Rome

-2- Rommel's preparations for the defence of Italy *(which would later lead to Operation Achse) and how much this included the stationing of German forces within Italy from June 1943 onwards ?

viz

While Hitler, Rommel, and the OKW made plans in anticipation of Italy's defection, Kesselring was planning for the further conduct of the war in cooperation with Mussolini and the Italian High Command, the Comando Supremo. In agreement with Comando Supremo, German forces in Italy had been built up independently of Rommel's plans in preparation for Allied attacks. By the time the Allies invaded Sicily in July, Kesselring had placed two German divisions on Sicily, one panzer and one panzer grenadier, both organized out of the troops that had been scheduled for North Africa before the Axis defeat. One panzer grenadier division, still in process of organization, was on Sardinia, and two panzer grenadier divisions and a panzer division recently transferred from France were in central and southern Italy. Though these units were officially under command of Comando Supremo, German strength and Italian weakness as well as the fact that German troops bore the main burden of the battle for Sicily made their subordination to Italian commands quite perfunctory. Kesselring, the senior German officer in Italy, was in fact the responsible commander
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Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
From the same page as above

When Mussolini fell on 25 July 1943, the King's appointment of Pietro Badoglio, Marshal of Italy, to be his successor shocked Kesselring; yet he believed Badoglio's solemn declarations that the war would continue. Hitler, Rommel, and the OKW worked under different assumptions. With the fall of Mussolini and Badoglio's assumption of control over the Italian Government, German plans covering an Italian collapse, rather vague and still in embryonic stages, suddenly acquired great importance and urgency. In his first excitement, Hitler-greatly disturbed over the fate of his fellow dictator-wanted to take immediate action by staging a coup d'état with German troops, arresting Badoglio and the King, liberating Mussolini, and re-establishing the fascist regime under German protection. Elements of the 2d Parachute Division were at once flown to Rome to bolster German strength. But caution, ignorance of Mussolini's whereabouts, and the apparent willingness of the Italians to maintain the alliance with Germany restrained Hitler. However, the idea was not dropped and General Kurt Student was charged with preparing the overthrow of Badoglio's government with the XI Air Corps, a parachute unit, now dispatched to Italy. At the same time Otto Skorzeny, a daredevil-type SS officer, received the mission of locating and liberating Mussolini." Instead of a sudden and dramatic move, Hitler decided to occupy Italy unobtrusively and gradually by increasing the number of German divisions in the country, if possible in agreement with Comando Supremo.
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Whilst this postdates the POD, it gives a clue as to reactions, and what units would be immediately available

As I thought, Student is more or less on call and could be dropped in the hope of preventing the transfer by land of the captive Hitler into the South

But I think that the major problem for Ambrosio is going to be his own ambivalent position. Unless the king and the Fascist Council come out on his side, then he could be seen as the usurper. OTL Feltre seems to have been followed by the due legal process for getting rid of Mussolini - the convening of the Fascist Grand Council, his being stripped of offices by the king, and a replacement being appointed by the king

If Ambrosio is to kidnap Hitler, it has to be at the same time as deposing Mussolini and this seems basically to be a military coup. But a military coup which leaves a large part of the army unclear as to what is going on, and the government in Rome still under the control of the Fascists

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

The Red

Grey Wolf said:
From the same page as above



Whilst this postdates the POD, it gives a clue as to reactions, and what units would be immediately available

As I thought, Student is more or less on call and could be dropped in the hope of preventing the transfer by land of the captive Hitler into the South

But I think that the major problem for Ambrosio is going to be his own ambivalent position. Unless the king and the Fascist Council come out on his side, then he could be seen as the usurper. OTL Feltre seems to have been followed by the due legal process for getting rid of Mussolini - the convening of the Fascist Grand Council, his being stripped of offices by the king, and a replacement being appointed by the king

If Ambrosio is to kidnap Hitler, it has to be at the same time as deposing Mussolini and this seems basically to be a military coup. But a military coup which leaves a large part of the army unclear as to what is going on, and the government in Rome still under the control of the Fascists

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
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Would the army fight if the Wehmarcht initiated Axis in this case?
 

Markus

Banned
Wow,

unless Hitler somehow escapes alive you just ended WW2 two years early and greatly restored Italy´s reputation...in all nations except Germany. They will come around eventually but expect the choice of icecream to be much more limited in NTL Germany. :D
 

basileus

Devilish it may be, it COULD have worked... It needed resolve, and just a bit of secrecy, not that many people should have been informed in advance.
We may assume thta the conspirators'd have some hours' time before the news of the kidnapping filter from Feltre (excuse the pun).
During that time Hitler and Mussolini, would be hauled to the nearest airport (near Vicenza? or Treviso?) and thence flown to Apulia, for additional safety (Sardinia, which would come to mind first as destination, had considerable German forces in place). With Hitler and Mussolini in the hands of the Regia Marina, whose officers were often pro-Allies, and artfully diffused rumors of their presence in a decoy location (Maddalena? Ponza? The Gran Sasso?) so as to distract German intelligence gathering, precious time would be gained. With a total mobilization, orders of immediate retreat from occupied territories and the public request of an armistice (with said underscored requests to the Allies in exhange of the two prisoners), Italy's positions would likely be better off. What would happen in Germany? Likely a coalition of "cool heads" arund Rommel, Manstein and Guderian would take over in a coup to raise a new national government with marshal Beck as Reichspraesident, asking for an armistice only in the West (which would not be conceded in words, but de facto if the Germans start evacuating the occupied countries).
 
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lothaw

basileus said:
The Duce would very likely be spared life by either Allies or putschist fellow countrymen at that point, IMO.
Hitler would be executed, period. Very likely by the Allies.
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Wonder if they'd bother trying him first.

But this is actually a plausible idea. The Italian Socialist Republic won't work without Mussolini and there's really no other token Fascist to take his place, so you'd probably see a standard occupation in Northern Italy.

The Germans would disarm whatever Italian units they could, but the Allies may well let the Italians fight to liberate the rest of their country. The Italian military was actually pretty good. Their biggest problem is lack of heavy equipment, trucks, artillery, ect. The US probably could help with that. This would also reduce 'real Allied' casualties and free up forces for an operation elsewhere.

Maybe ITTL you'd see more of the Balkans on the Allied side of the Iron Curtain.
 

Jimbrock

Do you think Italy might have enough time to 'redeem', keep the monarchy and even Istria?

And, at the very extreme, join the Allies and maybe even GAIN territory?:eek:
 

basileus

Jimbrock said:
Do you think Italy might have enough time to 'redeem', keep the monarchy and even Istria?

And, at the very extreme, join the Allies and maybe even GAIN territory?:eek:
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Retaining the monarchy is a distinct possibility. A civil war about the issue, following the end of WWII, cannot be excluded, though. As for Istria, I'm afraid most of it would be sacrificed however in the peace settlement, the Italians willing or not. Maybe a part would saved (Capodistria and Parenzo area). Gaining territories may be excluded absolutely.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Interesting thread idea, sort of reminds me of Turtledove's Ready for the Fatherland. Ultimately could be a bad thing in the long run - Nazi Germany might survive as a slightly tempered military regime, Italy would stay Fascist, the Holocaust would continue, etc...
 

lothaw

Himmler or Goebells or some combination thereof I'd imagine.

Badoglio seems the most likely contender for Italy still... don't think the Allies would put up with Ciano.
 

Eurofed

Banned
lothaw said:
Himmler or Goebells or some combination thereof I'd imagine.
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It's amazing how often people forget that Goring was the publicly and legally designated successor since September 1939. It's going to be either him or the generals. Goebbels has not a power base, the Wehrmacht does not want the SS in charge and Himmler has not a legal basis for succession, if he tries a coup with the SS network (much easier said than done, most SS are away to the front), the Heer easily can and shall counter-coup him (they swore loyalty to Hitler, not the Nazi regime). This is exactly the perfect legal excuse to activate Valkyrie.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
lothaw said:
And do you honestly think he'd be able to reign in either the Party or the SS on his own?
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No, he does need the support of the Heer, but against the SS, he would get it, or the generals tire out of Nazi infighting and take over. The Party bureaucracy itself is trivial in the power struggle.
 
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