Hesperia

question

This is, indeed a very good TL.

I have, however, a question. Were not those parts of Africa too filled with disease for European colonisation until 19th century medecine came along?

I may be wrong, but I fear the impact of diseases is way underestimated.

Don't let that stop you from continuying, however.
 
Atlantic Islands in Roman Empire

I thought that the Canaries were inhabited but the Cape Verde's weren't.
The Azores, the Madeiras, the Canaries, the Cape Verdes, are all in the relatively dry and nonmalarial areas. You need standing water for mosquitos. Water barrels will do it.
Yellow Fever needs a human host for an epidemic. Malarial victims survive a long time and infect other people, but yellow fever victims tend to either die or recover.
The islands can be conquered by ocean going fleets. Think Vikings. Would they outlast the empire?
Sao Tome and Principe and Annobon are in the warm and wet, malarial zones.
 
points

IOTL the African coastal Islands main exports are Citrus and Fish, ITTL I have them discovered by acceident in 50 BC. They survive by exporting Citrus products. When the collaspse happens they survive as peasants do. living in Greeko-roman style houses, Fishing , Raising Olives and oranges [think the smaller aegean islands] IOTL The Conquestidors destroyed the Books and Killed all the heathens in the Canaries & Azores, Here the Romans married into and replaced the Natives. ITTL Twenty century scholars will have the Alantician books thad were destroyed IOTL. The first Europeans to "discover" them in the 1400's will be amazed to find a peice of old Rome.

Diasease- While there are problems -The Great Plague, 538- and other outbreaks,This part of Rome will not lose the Roman Baths, and Public Washhouses [Laundry]. IOTL the church Nixed the Public baths as Heathen, and over cleanliness became a sign of non Christian. ITTL the Hesperain church Promotes Cleanliness & Sanitation. Many of the Medical persons in Hesparia end up being Monks, & Nuns, and the Church allows a slow medical research effort, or maybe just doesn't put up any Doctrine road blockes. As such when Hesperia starts exploring around the Niger and Congo Rivers, society-culture has a open mind about how to cure Malria, Yellow fever,ect. This will also have the effect of Hesperians Thinking of the Europeans after recontact, as Dirty, Unwashed, Barbarians.
 
HESPERIA ; Part six- Growth

HESPERIA ; Part six- Growth

In 430 A.D. when contact was first lost, Hesperia consisted of a strip of land some 350 Roman Miles [1728 standard strides, 2.5 ft /stride] by 30~50 miles wide. Reaching 300 m north & 50 m south of Roma de Sud. [cape Timiris--cape Vert (Dakar)]. By 460 exploring parties discovered the Gambia river, followed ten years later by a Settlement at it's mouth. By 520 The Great Coastal Road reached to this Settlement, And it looked like Hesperia was Set to rapidly expand on southward. Also in 520 Trading Parties moving up the made contact with the Dogon Tribe, which was moving westward ahead of the new Kingdom of Ghana.

By 535 With the growing contacts between the two, the Dogon appeared to be poised to be the middle men between the Growing Republic of Hesperia, and the Kingdom of Ghana. Unfortutally nature had other Ideas.

In 538~39 "The Great Plague" Killed 20% of the population, of Hesperia, and Hesperia under went a period of Contraction and nearly collapsed. It was saved when it was noticed that Cleanliness appeared to be a defense. All the Various Churches agreed to start Preaching the Message that "Cleanliness is Next to Godliness". There was a upsurge at the public baths, and wash houses. Hesperia, would be spared the European Idea of dirty being Christian & clean being Jewish or Islamic.

But the Plague had started on the Coast and was carried up river, the Dogon were especially hard hit. Forty years later, When the Hesperian return they find deserted villages and fallow Fields. [Major Butterfly- IOTL the Dogon, have resisted pressure to assimilate Politically, culturally, & religonally. Maintaining their separateness to this day]

By 620 Hesperia was well on the way to Recovery, The emphasis on Keeping Clean had spread to the Medics, & Midwife's, with a decrease in delivery deaths, and childhood diseases. The worst Problem was Malaria, and while not planned the Roman Canals & Drainage products would act to decrease this over the coming years. In the north Hesperia had withdrawn close to sixty miles, abandoning a couple of small towns and a half dozen villages, that reached into the Desert. This land would be populated by Bandits, escaped slaves, and other such. 500 years later it would again be occupied and fortified during a War. But It would always have a ""Wild North Mystic" [think OTL Wild West].

In 625 two important milestones. Work slowly resumed on the "Great Coastal Road" south of the Gambia. And The last of the Dogons, accepted Christianity. While Hesperia had been founded by Roman & Greek Merchants, most of these had been Male. So almost from the beginning a large amount of interracial contact had been the norm. Romans also judged people more on their Culture, than on their color. So over time as Hesperia started growing the color had been Darkening. With the Assimilation of the Dogon, the Hesperian adaptation to Africa was almost complete. Hesperia would grow as a Latin speaking African Nation. [biologists tell us the African Nose, and Kinky Hair are dominant genes]

:p
 
IOTL Axum held Yemen, the Red Sea [both sides], Somilia, and was starting south into Kenya. Following The Raise of Islam Axum lost it's sea Coast Empire in several Battles . The Axum retreated into the Ethiopean Highlands, [where there had come in the 300's]. This Christian Country south of the Moslems is commonly considered the Basis of the Prester John Myths.

Given My TL can any of you see any like Myths about Hesperia? ? Any way the exsitance of a Christian country on the Africa West Coast could help Ethiopia, or affect Byzanitine.

See my Portugal & Iberia posts, What butterflies happen 1000 yrs on due to [slight]more devoloped Morocco in 425.

:confused: :confused:
 
Very good TL. Well thought in most aspects but the relgious dimension is a little too neat and nice to my thinking. This isolated branch of Christendom would have its own internal squablles and theological evolution. Simply holding it at a 'primitive church" level is too idyllic.
 
Facts- Island

Dog gone subborn facts keep getting in the way. was reading a Travelogue about the Islands, appearently You can see the Closer of the Islands from the shore [not distinct but "land ho" from the lookout] So My just abandon Idea has to be reworked. Yes the Azores were uninhabited when the Portugeses discovered them. This was by a Ship that was laying off the carnaries to wait out a storm and was blown to them. {Wind and tidal currents steer you rite to them}

So Whe have the Remus {Cape Verde} islands settled 50~30 BC [POD] along with the Romus {Carnary} 40~20 BC & the Azores ~50~60 AD, Selling Olives, Dried Fruit, Dried Fish,& citrus Wine to European "Rome" when the Collaspe starts.

So the Remus [Cape Verde] Islands remain a minor Estado in La Provincia Hespernia. With most Mainland contact occuring by the fishermen who sail around in them.

The Romus [carnary] Islands Would would be the Southern edge of the Roman Province of Mauritinia. with a town on the Coast opposite them. They would decline in the forth century as Rome starts it pull back.

The Town [any Ideas for its name] at the southern end of the atlas mountians, is attacked in 439 by the Vandals, but there isn't any transportation for the Vandals to the Islands. As the Vandals settle down, the Untouched Islands help in the Rebuilding.

In the 520's Belluirus reconquers Mauritinia for the Bzyanitine's. The Yellow Death in 544, is a set back to growth, and as IOTL it stagnants. a very minor province at the end of The Eastern Roman Empire.

622- Mohammahad erupts into north Africa. 642 Conquers Eygpt & Libya [Tunis], then ran into the Berbers. It would take a couple of Centuries to finish converting them. and then they remained Independent of the Eastern Power centers. IOTL there were several cities along the Moraccan coast still calling themselves "Roman" as late as 850 AD. [Reseach turns out to be fun]

ITTL the morroccan Coast was more Devoloped [A few more towns and Farmers] along with the Islands as a rebuilding pool. I'm thinking about having them hold out till the late 900's, ?Roman Muslims?

?Does any one see a problem with the Vikings-aka-Normans establishing a Colony at the Straits on their way to Sicily?
:confused:
 
Herperian Christian? Church

Religion wise Hespernia ws the back of the beyound. Founded by Romans With a few Greeks, all Kinds of Heritics, Pagans, and Others, -Zoaistiam, Mitras, Copts, Nesterians, Gonostics, Jews, North Germanic, - ended up there when They got into trouble in Rome.

When Rome went Offically Chistian and Contancetine? held his Councils to establish uniformity, a Few Church officals were sent to bring the "Word" to Hespernia. So Hesperia, Offically had the same Religion as "Rome".

Except given the distance and the probability of this being a one way posting, there were few first or even second tier officals sent. The Officals sent were satisfied if lip service [And Tithes] were Paid. So a Just below the surface tolerance prevailed. and a Mergeing began.

After contact north was lost a new church emerged

As the Church had simply taken over the exsisting temples for their Use, the statues were renamed from Zeus and Hera, to Jehovah & Mary, with the other gods becoming the Aspolites, & Saints, of the Bible, With blaziers of Fire {zoaistism} repersenting the Holy Spirst, that burn in us all. From the Nestorians the church took the fish, instead of the cross, and from the Mithrisians, the Preist became the guardians of the Mysteries, & Holy sites,taken from the Natives.

When the Church encountered Islam it was More than happy to start incorperating parts of this new religion, this was one of the main reasons Islam would fight, and Still considers The Hesperian Church worst than the European Christians.

Suggestions being taken for what parts of Islam would be adopted.

:D
 
DuQuense said:
Suggestions being taken for what parts of Islam would be adopted.
:D

Probably a downplaying of the Trinity and a reversion to something close to Arianism where the Son and the Father are not on the same level. This gets rid of Islam's complaint that Christianity was not monotheisitic.

The Super Syncretistic Hesperian Church is going to be looked on very unkindly once contact is reestablished with Rome. I also think that before then there would be internal problems with some purist clerics bewailing the adulteration of the Faith.
 
HESPERIA ; Part seven- Contact

HESPERIA ; Part seven- Contact

The adoption of the Camel by the Berbers in the fourth century had allowed them to trans cross the Sahara, The establishment of Hesperia on the coast had allowed trade from West Africa to travel by ship to North Africa, as such ITTL the establishment of the Trans Sahara trade routes was delayed. But with the collapse of the sea route in 420, and again in 544, the way was open for the Berbers.

In 390 the Berbers had established a few small settlements on the upper reaches of the Senegal river. With the collapse of the sea route in 420, these settlements had grown, only to lapse, with the resumption of the sea route in 450. But with the total Collapse in 538-544, they once again started, growing, and they would continue for the next thousand years.

Dispute several setbacks in the fifth & sixth centuries, by the second half of the seventh Hesperia was ready to grow. And, Like Rome and Constantinople before it, Roma de Sud, had the Organization to do it with. In 679 Hesperia formally {the traders had been moving back and forth, for over 50 years.} Hesperia built a village on the northeast bank of the Tiberian river. The Kingdom of Ghana objected, and War broke out.

While Ghana had a decent Military, and in fact had conquered several smaller neighbor states, Hesperia had a Military based on the Roman Republic and it's legions. By 681 Ghana was a Subject Kingdom, and Hesperia was embarked, on the Road to Empire.
 
HESPERIA ; Part eight- Islam

HESPERIA ; Part eight- Islam

Far to the North and East Something had happened that would completely change the Direction that Hesperia was headed. In Mecca on the Red Sea, the son of a Merchant started preaching about what was wrong with Christianity. In 622 the "Powers that Be" Kicked him out of Mecca. Within a generation of the hijra--Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina in A.D. 622, and hence the beginning of the growth of Islam, the youngest of the great monotheistic religions--the message of the Prophet would spread like wildfire into Asia in the east and Africa in the west. Membership in the umma, or worldwide community of believers, gave a deep sense of cohesion and community to all Muslims, regardless of race, ethnicity, status, or wealth. All shared the majestic simplicity of starkly monotheistic faith in Allah, "submission" (Islam) to whom was expressed in adherence to the five "pillars" or fundamental practices of the new religion: a profession of faith, daily prayer, fasting, alms giving, and pilgrimage.

Among the many striking successes of the early Arab warriors on jihad numbered the conquest of Egypt, which fell to Islam in 641. Muslim armies continued their drive west across north Africa, but soon encountered a more resistant foe than the Byzantine forces which had been so handily defeated in the lands around the eastern Mediterranean. These new enemies were the Berbers, the hardy "lords of the desert" who would come to dominate the trans-Saharan trade. Paradoxically, perhaps, the Berbers were attracted to the new religion even as they struggled against the bearers of its message. Soon the Berbers were Muslims every bit as fervent as the Arabs, and had moreover embraced an extremely strict form of the faith known as Khariji Islam, which emphasized utter equality between all members of the umma. After rebelling successfully against Arab domination, the Berbers were subject to the caliphs of Damascus and Baghdad in name only, and went on to play crucial and self-sufficient roles in the history of Islam and trade in Africa.

The Berbers who had founded the Kingdom of Ghana, had like their forefathers in Roman North Africa, were Christians, and accepted the Christian Hesperians. If the Hesperian Type of Christianity wasn't Catholic, of Orthodox, or Coptic, it didn't matter, because the Berbers weren't exactly Pure either. But by 680- 710 Islam had "conquered" north Africa, and the newly converted Berbers were ready and willing to convert their southern cousins.

In 710 Hesperia had a thin finger of territory that extended north of the Senegal river about 240 miles and thirty miles wide, with another abandoned 60 miles further north. To the south they had crossed the Gambia and were expanding along the foothills of the Guinea highlands. [OTL Senegal & Guinea-Bissau], With the absorbsion of the Dogon, they had expanded inland all along the south & west banks of the Senegal river. This they had settled, and controlled by living on it.

With the unplanned Conquest of Ghana, a lot had changed. Ghana had conquered several neighbor states and extended from the Mauritania Coast to the city of Goa on the Niger River. These subject peoples had been unhappy about being part of Ghana, but at lest Ghana was a Berber Kingdom like them. While these small kingdoms weren't ready to rebel, they were more than willing to show their unhappiness by embracing the new religion of Islam. By 730 these subject kingdoms were majority Islam.

[ [It's hard to get exact dates for events at this period, but IOTL, the Islaming of these Berber Kingdoms started in the early 700's. It then took several generations. I have speeded it up, as a reaction to the Conquest of Greater Ghana, By the Hesperian Christians].

In 760 After only 80 years [third generation reaching adulthood] the Hesperian Empire collapsed. Lead by the Songhay tribe in the City of Goa, the Islamic Kingdoms rebelled. While the Hesperians had the superior Army, the difficulties of subduing a hostile population over the distances needed, was just to much to handle. Like it's founder had done 300 years earlier, Roma de Sud withdrew to it's core and immediate surrounding territory. [With more Success than Rome had had. It managed to hold Ghana].

After regaining their freedom the Small Islamic Kingdoms started on a program of forced conversion or expulsion of the remaining Christians in the Kingdoms. Thousands fled, or were forced out. Once again Hesperia received a flood of refugees. Those that didn't settle in Ghana, ended up being settled in the Guinea Highlands. After a short try at Empire, Hesperia, once again a Republic, was back at it's old Game of, Growing it's way south.
 

Diamond

Banned
Nice.

Somehow I don't foresee all those temporarily Hesperian kingdoms saying 'live and let live' after driving out the Christians... will the kingdoms only provide a minor threat to Hesperia, disunited and squabbling with each other, or will Someone unite them and try to take Ghana and then march on the south?

And how are the arabian and egyptian islamics reacting to this remnant of Rome in the south?
 
I'm working on it

Ghana was the first of the sub saharan Sahelian, Medival era Kindoms, they were overthrown by the Songhay base in Gao on the Niger river. The Songhay gave way to the Mali ect . While these kingdoms tried to establish stable Gov'ts and Armies , the First and most inportant thing in these Kingdoms was a stable trading Relation with their Neigbors.

Few Merchants made the Trip with their goods all the way from sub sahara to Eygpt or Charthage, there were three of four middle kingdoms between with the good bought sold and reshipped along the way.

So when a merchant in Cario or Alexanderia received the Goods, he only knew that they had come from the far south west BEYOND the great Sahara.

As Such while I'll have some border incidents between Hesperia & the Songhay,

The Hesperians take Augustus Caeser advise that there are limits to expansion. and like the other Sahel Kingdoms will concentrate on trade.

Of Course, The Islamic Fundilmentists will pop up Shortly and change the equastion.
 
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