Henry VIII dies in December 1536

Jan Olbracht

H8 dying earlier (usually in jousting accident) was done many times. Especially with him dying in 1536. But depending of part of that year we can have very different outcomes.

Why December (late December-I want Henry to have some nasty accident between Christmas and New Year)? Because of combination of events, that would not last long. Henry is married to Jane Seymour, but their son was not conceived yet. That leaves Mary as obvious heir (once it is clear, that her step-mom is not pregnant). Meanwhile James V is in France, about to marry Madaleine (news of uncle's death may not even reach him), Emperor Charles V is not yet widowed and Mary's OTL husband is 9 years old. That leaves... Duke of Beja?

So what happens? With whom Mary rules England?
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
The Duke of Orleans is still alive at this point, although would Mary accept marriage to Charles when a Medici now sits as Dauphine?
 

Mikestone8

Depends how *quickly* she marries. Her mother's experiences will be a fresh, horrible memory, and if she hesitates for a couple of years, then Charles V becomes the most eligible widower in Europe.
 

Jan Olbracht

Mikestone8 said:
Depends how *quickly* she marries. Her mother's experiences will be a fresh, horrible memory, and if she hesitates for a couple of years, then Charles V becomes the most eligible widower in Europe.
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James V would be widowed earlier. Window of opportunity for other candidates is narrow
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

This is a Mary-wank POD, I love it. No, she would not marry the Duke of Orleans - not only is the Dauphine MUCH lower-born than her, he's also six years younger and her own parents are example against such age gap. She will marry very quickly to secure the throne as there is always chance of Elizabeth making comeback as heiress
 

Kerney

One the interesting details about this scenario is Mary owns Elizabeth body and soul, which has some interesting implications. She is probably treated well by Mary like otl and that might continue as seeing she sees herself as Catholic and a bastard, is never a credible threat in a much more Catholic atl, and not being a product of the Henry the 8th/Thomas Seymour school of healthy relationships, could have an ordinary, healthy life. Yet, being who she is, still be extraordinary.

And Mary not having another two decades of psychological torture is also better and happier.
 
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ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Kerney said:
One the interesting details about this scenario is Mary owns Elizabeth body and soul, which has some interesting implications. She is probably treated well by Mary like otl and that might continue as seeing she sees herself as Catholic and a bastard, is never a credible threat in a much more Catholic atl, and not being a product of the Henry the 8th/Thomas Seymour school of healthy relationships, could have an ordinary, healthy life. Yet, being who she is, still be extraordinary.

And Mary not having another two decades of psychological torture is also better and happier.
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Body and soul? Also, Mary didn't treat Elizabeth that well once she was queen IOTL... but the circumstances are very different here. Maybe Elizabeth gets Robert Dudley, even. They'd be good together
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

ordinarylittleme said:
This is a Mary-wank POD, I love it. No, she would not marry the Duke of Orleans - not only is the Dauphine MUCH lower-born than her, he's also six years younger and her own parents are example against such age gap. She will marry very quickly to secure the throne as there is always chance of Elizabeth making comeback as heiress
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But like other folks said, there are no higher born options if she does not wait.
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
The Dauphin and Dauphine married in 1533 at the age of fourteen, in 1536, Orleans is fourteen and whilst Mary is 20, they're both capable of producing children.

Henri and Catherine didn't have a surviving child for over ten years (blame Diane de Poitiers), so Orleans was Heir Presumptive to the Dauphin and if Mary and Orleans could produce a son (whether he be Henry, Francis or Charles) then he would be positioned fairly high in France.

And then if the main line goes extinct on schedule, England inherits France by 1600.

But OTL Orleans dies in 1545 which would position Mary as a possible second wife for Charles V, so she could end up theoretically being mother to the King of France and the King of Spain
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

wwbgdiaslt said:
The Dauphin and Dauphine married in 1533 at the age of fourteen, in 1536, Orleans is fourteen and whilst Mary is 20, they're both capable of producing children.

Henri and Catherine didn't have a surviving child for over ten years (blame Diane de Poitiers), so Orleans was Heir Presumptive to the Dauphin and if Mary and Orleans could produce a son (whether he be Henry, Francis or Charles) then he would be positioned fairly high in France.

And then if the main line goes extinct on schedule, England inherits France by 1600.

But OTL Orleans dies in 1545 which would position Mary as a possible second wife for Charles V, so she could end up theoretically being mother to the King of France and the King of Spain
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OTL Orleans died in truly idiotic manner which would be butterflied if he was in England and serving as Mary's consort. Mary also would not be mother of Spanish king, as Philip II was alive in 1536.
 

Kerney

ordinarylittleme said:
Body and soul? Also, Mary didn't treat Elizabeth that well once she was queen IOTL... but the circumstances are very different here. Maybe Elizabeth gets Robert Dudley, even. They'd be good together
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She intervened with Jane Seymour on Elizabeth's behalf otl and until people whispered about removing her and putting Liz on the throne she was a great sister. Liz did nothing, but having people ready to kill/arrest you in her little sister's name doesn't help.

As for body and soul, picking her tutors, bestowing affection, and molding her from an early age tends to do that.
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
ordinarylittleme said:
OTL Orleans died in truly idiotic manner which would be butterflied if he was in England and serving as Mary's consort. Mary also would not be mother of Spanish king, as Philip II was alive in 1536.
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I know that and you misquote me.

so she could end up theoretically being mother to the King of France and the King of Spain
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Because if we're killing Henry VIII off in 1536, there is no reason that OTLPhilip II might not be killed off in his youth.

The point was more that a son by Orleans could inherit France and England, whilst a son by Charles V could inherit Spain (and England, theoretically).

So, a Henry de Valois, Prince of Wales could be Henry IV and IX of England, France and Ireland, whilst a Charles Habsburg, Duke of York, could be Charles II of Spain whilst his elder brother ruled in Franco-England. This would theoretically also leave us with Archduchess Mary of Austria, Charles V's daughter, laying claim to Portugal in 1580 in lieu of OTL Philip.

So she could be Mother to the King of France and England, mother to the King of Spain, and step-mother to the Queen of Portugal (as well as step-grandmother to a King of Portugal as well). Which could significantly alter the balance of power and probably have the Pope spitting tacks in the Vatican.

So ...

Mary of England, b. 1516, r. 1536 to 1558, m1. Charles de Valois, Duke of Orleans (d. 1545), m2. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (d. 1558)
1a) Henry IX and IV of England and France, b. 1540, r. 1558/1589 to 1607​
2a) Charles II of Spain, also Duke of York, b. 1547, r. 1558 to 1616​
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

wwbgdiaslt said:
So she could be Mother to the King of France and England, mother to the King of Spain, and step-mother to the Queen of Portugal (as well as step-grandmother to a King of Portugal as well). Which could significantly alter the balance of power and probably have the Pope spitting tacks in the Vatican.

So ...

Mary of England, b. 1516, r. 1536 to 1558, m1. Charles de Valois, Duke of Orleans (d. 1545), m2. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (d. 1558)
1a) Henry IX and IV of England and France, b. 1540, r. 1558/1589 to 1607​
2a) Charles II of Spain, also Duke of York, b. 1547, r. 1558 to 1616​
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This is actually the absolute best TL idea ever? (You'd need to kill off the line of IOTL's Henry II of France, but that's not too ASB...)
The Pope will be ecstatic. Mary was DEFINITELY a devout Catholic and loyal to Rome/the papacy. He'll be delighted at this "sign from God"
 

Mikestone8

Kerney said:
As for body and soul, picking her tutors, bestowing affection, and molding her from an early age tends to do that.
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This would also mean Jane Grey and her sisters growing up Catholic, and Margaret Douglas' children likewise. So virtually all potential heirs to the English throne are now RC.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Mikestone8 said:
This would also mean Jane Grey and her sisters growing up Catholic, and Margaret Douglas' children likewise. So virtually all potential heirs to the English throne are now RC.
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Catholic England probably makes much stronger ties to the Habsburgs and Valois, as the two other Catholic dominant powers
Cue the inbreeding...
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
ordinarylittleme said:
This is actually the absolute best TL idea ever? (You'd need to kill off the line of IOTL's Henry II of France, but that's not too ASB...)
The Pope will be ecstatic. Mary was DEFINITELY a devout Catholic and loyal to Rome/the papacy. He'll be delighted at this "sign from God"
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And if you want to level it up, have Franco-England marry a second son into Portugal so you end up with Valois Portugal instead of Habsburg/Braganza Portugal.
 
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