Henry IX
- Thread starter stephenh
- Start date
The survival of Prince Henry obviously butterflies the entire familiar story of Henry VIII. He never dumps Catherine of Aragon and probably remains a strong Catholic. Does he descend into anything like the gross excess of OTL, or is his popular image entirely different?
An interesting thought: What if Henry, Prince of Wales has reformist leanings? Born in 1511, he'll receive a first class Erasmian humanist education in the 1520s, before the Reformation battle lines have been clearly drawn. If he drifts in a reformist direction, sheer rivalry with the old man could do the rest. Or England might remain Catholic without becoming the echo of counter-Reformation Spain that is popularly imagined. If England could go back and forth twice without a serious war of religion, it could stay Catholic with no serious war of religion - nor even an equivalent of the Marian persecution, if Protestantism has never gained a foothold to begin with.
England might end up as a Catholic country with an 'Anglican' Counter-Reformation.
Note that if Henry VIII lasts as long as in OTL, Henry IX is 36 years old when he comes to the throne - the father-son relationship could well be a driving force of English politics from about 1530 on. Henry VIII can remarry when Cath of A dies, so he might have a second son at just about the same time the Prince of Wales has a son.
Lots of interesting possibilities here!
Colonization in anything like the OTL sense is is unlikely. Prior to the mid 16th century population explosion England had no serious land shortage. A Henrician effort in the New World would focus on looking for the Northwest Passage. They might start trading with the Indians, especially if beaver pelts were already fashionable. But other than trading posts, there is little reason to establish settlements.
Truth to be told, in the 16th century North America is worthless wilderness - no cities of gold, no peasant population waiting to be conquered. Spain drew all the good cards. But Henry VIII is Spain's ally, and whatever his religious attitudes, Henry IX is half Spanish.
But the English will want a piece of the good action in the New World, and for the Spanish it could be wise to give them some. Even in OTL, and amazingly, there are suggestions that John Hawkins genuinely hoped at one point that the Spanish would hire him to protect their New World interests against French interlopers - the Spanish hired Genoese galley squadrons, so why not English sailing squadrons?
Don Francisco Draque, hero of Spain, scourge of French pirates ...
An interesting thought: What if Henry, Prince of Wales has reformist leanings? Born in 1511, he'll receive a first class Erasmian humanist education in the 1520s, before the Reformation battle lines have been clearly drawn. If he drifts in a reformist direction, sheer rivalry with the old man could do the rest. Or England might remain Catholic without becoming the echo of counter-Reformation Spain that is popularly imagined. If England could go back and forth twice without a serious war of religion, it could stay Catholic with no serious war of religion - nor even an equivalent of the Marian persecution, if Protestantism has never gained a foothold to begin with.
England might end up as a Catholic country with an 'Anglican' Counter-Reformation.
Note that if Henry VIII lasts as long as in OTL, Henry IX is 36 years old when he comes to the throne - the father-son relationship could well be a driving force of English politics from about 1530 on. Henry VIII can remarry when Cath of A dies, so he might have a second son at just about the same time the Prince of Wales has a son.
Lots of interesting possibilities here!
Colonization in anything like the OTL sense is is unlikely. Prior to the mid 16th century population explosion England had no serious land shortage. A Henrician effort in the New World would focus on looking for the Northwest Passage. They might start trading with the Indians, especially if beaver pelts were already fashionable. But other than trading posts, there is little reason to establish settlements.
Truth to be told, in the 16th century North America is worthless wilderness - no cities of gold, no peasant population waiting to be conquered. Spain drew all the good cards. But Henry VIII is Spain's ally, and whatever his religious attitudes, Henry IX is half Spanish.
But the English will want a piece of the good action in the New World, and for the Spanish it could be wise to give them some. Even in OTL, and amazingly, there are suggestions that John Hawkins genuinely hoped at one point that the Spanish would hire him to protect their New World interests against French interlopers - the Spanish hired Genoese galley squadrons, so why not English sailing squadrons?
Don Francisco Draque, hero of Spain, scourge of French pirates ...
That could . . . fun/interesting
In this TL with Henry VIII already having a son would he still go off and produce Henry, Duke of Richmond?
- Butterflys of him surviving as well
That would be:
Henry - Prince of Wales
- His son, call him Edward.
Henry VIII's 2nd son - call him Arthur to honour his dead uncle.
Henry - Duke of Richmond, the illegitimate son and half brother to the next King.
fun fun fun and alot of Henrys in my novel draft Catherine of Aragon dies in 1519 in childbed after producing four surviving children (Henry,Eleanor,Catherine and Lionel) and Henry marries Claude, daughter of Louis XII of France. Also at this time Mary Tudor, Queen Dowager of France has married Charles V and Margaret is on husband no.3, after James IV and Ferdinand of Aragon (though he dies before she even leaves Scotland)
Assuming Prince Henry's survival then it is highly unlikely that Henry VIII will divorce Catherine - I assume Catherine will also go on to produce a healthy Princess Mary in 1516 (as in OTL). Both children are likely to receive similar educations, Mary's was essentially humanist but devoutly Catholic. Catherine of Aragon was exceptionally interested in her daughter's education.
Its not unlikely though in this TL that Henry VIII might still fall in love with the Lady Anne Boleyn (and whatever we might think he clearly fell for her and remained deeply in love with her until their marriage)...she may well have become an English Diane de Poitiers - given that she'd spent so much time at the courts of Burgundy and France where she'd experienced much of the new learning coming out of Europe her religious interests may have influenced court circles. Had she held out retaining her virginity she might have been Henry's choice for a second wife after Catherine's death in 1536 - with their daughter Elizabeth born legitimately in 1537 perhaps. With less pressure for a male heir (with Henry's son perhaps married and producing children of his own) - the Boleyn marriage may have survived with a Queen of protestant leanings for the remainder of Henry's reign.
Much will depend on who Prince Henry and Princess Mary marry -
Mary was betrothed to the Dauphin Francis in 1518 much to her mother's disgust (that was largely over Henry's disatisfaction with his spanish allies) - broken three years later, and then she was betrothed to the Emperor Charles V (then 22) in 1522 - he understandably didn't want to wait for his bride and married Isabella of Portugal - Henry then betrothed Mary to either Francis I or failing that union to his second son Henri Duke of Orleans in 1526.
Catherine of Aragon was usually opposed to the french matches for Mary preferring to instill in Mary the attractions of imperial spanish matches.
As for Henry Prince of Wales the same swing betrothals would probably be likely - an early betrothal with his cousin Catherine of Austria (youngest child of Joanna of Aragon and Philip of Burgundy b 1507) would be a likely suggestion, when his sister Mary was betrothed to the dauphin, he might have been suggested as a husband for Princess Charlotte (she died in 1524) of France or later her sister Princess Madeleine born 1520.
Potential brides of his own age (born between 1510 and 1520 are few on the ground). However given the vagaries of his father's alliances in the 1520's i suspect that actual confirmed betrothals would have been Catherine of Austria in 1522 when Charles V broke his engagement to Mary a sop to keep Henry on side in 1526 might have been the actual marriage of Catherine and young Henry (she was 19, Henry 15) - assuming that Charles hadn't forced her into the portuguese marriage in 1525. Failing that then it would probably have been Madeleine of France in the 1530's perhaps. (though in OTL she died in childbirth in 1537).
As to the rest - the survival of Henry Prince of Wales is unlikely to have affected the scandalous behaviour of his aunts Margaret and Mary Tudor.
As to the religion issue it is probably more likely that England will face a later reformation similar to that in Scotland and France and probably more Calvinist in nature.
Its not unlikely though in this TL that Henry VIII might still fall in love with the Lady Anne Boleyn (and whatever we might think he clearly fell for her and remained deeply in love with her until their marriage)...she may well have become an English Diane de Poitiers - given that she'd spent so much time at the courts of Burgundy and France where she'd experienced much of the new learning coming out of Europe her religious interests may have influenced court circles. Had she held out retaining her virginity she might have been Henry's choice for a second wife after Catherine's death in 1536 - with their daughter Elizabeth born legitimately in 1537 perhaps. With less pressure for a male heir (with Henry's son perhaps married and producing children of his own) - the Boleyn marriage may have survived with a Queen of protestant leanings for the remainder of Henry's reign.
Much will depend on who Prince Henry and Princess Mary marry -
Mary was betrothed to the Dauphin Francis in 1518 much to her mother's disgust (that was largely over Henry's disatisfaction with his spanish allies) - broken three years later, and then she was betrothed to the Emperor Charles V (then 22) in 1522 - he understandably didn't want to wait for his bride and married Isabella of Portugal - Henry then betrothed Mary to either Francis I or failing that union to his second son Henri Duke of Orleans in 1526.
Catherine of Aragon was usually opposed to the french matches for Mary preferring to instill in Mary the attractions of imperial spanish matches.
As for Henry Prince of Wales the same swing betrothals would probably be likely - an early betrothal with his cousin Catherine of Austria (youngest child of Joanna of Aragon and Philip of Burgundy b 1507) would be a likely suggestion, when his sister Mary was betrothed to the dauphin, he might have been suggested as a husband for Princess Charlotte (she died in 1524) of France or later her sister Princess Madeleine born 1520.
Potential brides of his own age (born between 1510 and 1520 are few on the ground). However given the vagaries of his father's alliances in the 1520's i suspect that actual confirmed betrothals would have been Catherine of Austria in 1522 when Charles V broke his engagement to Mary a sop to keep Henry on side in 1526 might have been the actual marriage of Catherine and young Henry (she was 19, Henry 15) - assuming that Charles hadn't forced her into the portuguese marriage in 1525. Failing that then it would probably have been Madeleine of France in the 1530's perhaps. (though in OTL she died in childbirth in 1537).
As to the rest - the survival of Henry Prince of Wales is unlikely to have affected the scandalous behaviour of his aunts Margaret and Mary Tudor.
As to the religion issue it is probably more likely that England will face a later reformation similar to that in Scotland and France and probably more Calvinist in nature.
The survival of Prince Henry obviously butterflies the entire familiar story of Henry VIII. He never dumps Catherine of Aragon and probably remains a strong Catholic. Does he descend into anything like the gross excess of OTL, or is his popular image entirely different?
An interesting thought: What if Henry, Prince of Wales has reformist leanings? Born in 1511, he'll receive a first class Erasmian humanist education in the 1520s, before the Reformation battle lines have been clearly drawn. If he drifts in a reformist direction, sheer rivalry with the old man could do the rest. Or England might remain Catholic without becoming the echo of counter-Reformation Spain that is popularly imagined. If England could go back and forth twice without a serious war of religion, it could stay Catholic with no serious war of religion - nor even an equivalent of the Marian persecution, if Protestantism has never gained a foothold to begin with.
England might end up as a Catholic country with an 'Anglican' Counter-Reformation.
Note that if Henry VIII lasts as long as in OTL, Henry IX is 36 years old when he comes to the throne - the father-son relationship could well be a driving force of English politics from about 1530 on. Henry VIII can remarry when Cath of A dies, so he might have a second son at just about the same time the Prince of Wales has a son.
Lots of interesting possibilities here!
Colonization in anything like the OTL sense is is unlikely. Prior to the mid 16th century population explosion England had no serious land shortage. A Henrician effort in the New World would focus on looking for the Northwest Passage. They might start trading with the Indians, especially if beaver pelts were already fashionable. But other than trading posts, there is little reason to establish settlements.
Truth to be told, in the 16th century North America is worthless wilderness - no cities of gold, no peasant population waiting to be conquered. Spain drew all the good cards. But Henry VIII is Spain's ally, and whatever his religious attitudes, Henry IX is half Spanish.
But the English will want a piece of the good action in the New World, and for the Spanish it could be wise to give them some. Even in OTL, and amazingly, there are suggestions that John Hawkins genuinely hoped at one point that the Spanish would hire him to protect their New World interests against French interlopers - the Spanish hired Genoese galley squadrons, so why not English sailing squadrons?
Don Francisco Draque, hero of Spain, scourge of French pirates ...
Truth to be told, in the 16th century North America is worthless wilderness - no cities of gold, no peasant population waiting to be conquered. Spain drew all the good cards. But Henry VIII is Spain's ally, and whatever his religious attitudes, Henry IX is half Spanish.
But the English will want a piece of the good action in the New World, and for the Spanish it could be wise to give them some. Even in OTL, and amazingly, there are suggestions that John Hawkins genuinely hoped at one point that the Spanish would hire him to protect their New World interests against French interlopers - the Spanish hired Genoese galley squadrons, so why not English sailing squadrons?
Don Francisco Draque, hero of Spain, scourge of French pirates ...
Blood lineage matters nothing, seriously nothing, in foreign politics. The advancement of the state's interests is seen as far more important. A marriage alliance can be used to prevent relations turning hostile but that only lasts for one generation. The thing is that England's natural interests in the Americas are too much to Spain's detriment. England was jealous of Spain's wealth, and it had interests in the Americas - finding the Northwest Passage, had it been possible, would have turned immense profits for England. This conflicts with the Treaty of Tordesillas which grants Spain full sovereignty not only over virtually all of the Americas - including the entirety of North America - but also of the lands beyond, meaning China which England so desperately wanted to trade with. (Technically China was in Portugal's sphere of control by that treaty, but the Pacific was utterly underestimated in size - they thought it was about 1/4 of its real size - which meant they thought it was in Spain's area, just). When you have issues like that you're always going to have England and Spain coming to blows, it's just the extent of the problems that you can limit. And if England and Spain actually turn hostile, you're going to see England giving up gentlemanly honour and eyeing up the Caribbean and Central America as in OTL. And just to clarify - Spain won't offer England concessions, even if it does play good ally all this. Spain in this period believed it was the natural leader of the Christian world. All other countries were at best second rate powers; England's allyship would be treated as England's natural obligation to honour Spain's supremacy, not a treaty of equal partners. Spain didn't see any reason to give up any of its rights in the Americas, it thought them sacrosanct. Even a century on, when it had lost much of its supremacy and lost countless colonial conflicts, it took decades and much blood for the Spanish to just grant England logging rights in one tiny part of Central America, and even then they outright refused to let England build a port or trade independently for the wood they cut. Even into the 19th century they were claiming that the Americas were rightfully theirs.
I'm not sure about English ships sailing under Spanish colours either. It's possible that one or two captains would choose to do so under their own volition, but the general idea of Spain hiring English ships as a matter of course is very unlikely. The Genoa analogy misses the point that Genoa was a small state, insignificant if it weren't for its banking houses and its powerful navy. This made it the perfect mercenary state. It could loan big sums to countries as war loans, offer its services in the Mediterranean where it was dominant, and then bring even the greatest countries into its debt by so doing. It had little to fear from being annexed as the big powers - notably Spain and France - were too much in its debt to let it go and its greatest assets weren't land-based. Though France occupied it
several times, notably it took 'til the Napoleonic Wars for it to be subsumed into another country. England by contrast lacked the finances and naval power, and had too much to lose in becoming a mercenary nation - not least it's pride and prestige.
Sorry to debunk your ideas, though. Looks like you were enjoying the thought of El Draco being well-regarded in Spanish
in the draft here is the story:
Henry IX marries Amelia of Cleves, step-daughter of Catherine of Austria (in my world)The Scots get two alliances, James V marries Anne of Cleves and his sister Christina the Duke of Cleves.
Why Cleves?
Back-door alliance within the H.R.E. in case anything does happen to Charles V.
Henry IX marries Amelia of Cleves, step-daughter of Catherine of Austria (in my world)The Scots get two alliances, James V marries Anne of Cleves and his sister Christina the Duke of Cleves.
Why Cleves?
Back-door alliance within the H.R.E. in case anything does happen to Charles V.
Going to get interesting when Cleves turns Protestant Out of curiosity is there a reason why Cleves is getting three such marriages with British royal families in such a short period though? I'm not disagreeing with it (though I would question it a little), I'm just wondering if you're trying to set Cleves up for something.
Out of curiosity is there a reason why Cleves is getting three such marriages with British royal families in such a short period though? I'm not disagreeing with it (though I would question it a little), I'm just wondering if you're trying to set Cleves up for something.
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The Cleves marriages would be unusual for both England and Scotland - and it would be bizarre for any co-operation between the two countries at that period.
James V (given his poor relationship with his uncle Henry VIII who had attempted to interfer in Scotland throughout James' minority) was pretty focused on maintaining the Auld Alliance with France - his first marriage in 1536 to Madeleine of France represented that and his second to Marie of Guise was about maintaining it.
With no English royal divorce in the 1530's - Henry VIII has no need for anti-hapsburg alliances, nor any need for an alliance with a reformed prince - Henry, his son prince Henry and his nephew James V are all devout Roman Catholics still.
Henry has spent the last two decades playing off the French and Charles V to maintain his own position on the sidelines - with as in OTL little success at regaining any English territory in France.
To be honest the match with the Ducal house of Cleves isn't really up to snuff for the King of Scots or the Prince of Wales at any time between the late 1520's and early 1530's.
Back to your draft which i thought was interesting - but you have some issues to contend with. Margaret Tudor Queen of Scots was named regent for James V on the death of James IV - she was most reluctant to surrender it and with political skill played off the factions at the Scots Court - it was only her subsequent remarriage to the Earl of Angus ( a year later) that caused her to lose the regency - that marriage eventually collapsed and caused yet another rift in Scots politics. As Queen Dowager there was no-one to force her into a remarriage that she didn't approve or or want.
James V (given his poor relationship with his uncle Henry VIII who had attempted to interfer in Scotland throughout James' minority) was pretty focused on maintaining the Auld Alliance with France - his first marriage in 1536 to Madeleine of France represented that and his second to Marie of Guise was about maintaining it.
With no English royal divorce in the 1530's - Henry VIII has no need for anti-hapsburg alliances, nor any need for an alliance with a reformed prince - Henry, his son prince Henry and his nephew James V are all devout Roman Catholics still.
Henry has spent the last two decades playing off the French and Charles V to maintain his own position on the sidelines - with as in OTL little success at regaining any English territory in France.
To be honest the match with the Ducal house of Cleves isn't really up to snuff for the King of Scots or the Prince of Wales at any time between the late 1520's and early 1530's.
Back to your draft which i thought was interesting - but you have some issues to contend with. Margaret Tudor Queen of Scots was named regent for James V on the death of James IV - she was most reluctant to surrender it and with political skill played off the factions at the Scots Court - it was only her subsequent remarriage to the Earl of Angus ( a year later) that caused her to lose the regency - that marriage eventually collapsed and caused yet another rift in Scots politics. As Queen Dowager there was no-one to force her into a remarriage that she didn't approve or or want.
In the book: Henry sacks Scotland three times: in 1523,1525 and 1529. Cleves' power has been raised because their duke is a brother-in-law of Charles V following William's second marriage to Catherine of Austria. The royal family of Cleves are related to both English and Scottish royal families, being descended from Edward I. Scotlands has a much closer common ancestor, Adolph I, a great-great-great grandfather of James V. Wars have also been declared on France following the Duke of Angloueme (Francis I in real history) trying to take over Scotland through his wife Margaret Tudor acting as Queen Regnant on and off in the 1516-28 period (Flodden never happened, James IV dies of smallpox in 1516)
It's an interesting idea but you'd have to go some way to explain three attacks on Scotland in a decade. Henry VIII was particularly uninterested in Scots affairs until the death of his brother in law - then his only real interest was trying to control Scots affairs and his young nephew in order to free him up to interfer in European (for that read French affairs) and his other continental ambitions (that were largely frustrated).
Henry VIII's invasion of France in 1513 was prompted by his own ambitions of reviving the long lost angevin empire and at the prompting of Ferdinand of Aragon by whom he was treaty bound. If you remove Flodden you need to explain why Louis XII doesn't fall back on the usual French tactic of persuading the "auld" ally in Scotland to attack England when England invades in 1513 in support of Spain.
Even assuming your later death for James IV you have a regency (see the comments I made earlier about the likelihood of Margaret surrendering the regency to remarry - she was in reality quite a passionate woman, she was also a fond mother, I can't see her choosing a remarriage abroad unless forced into it) - Scots regencies were notoriously unsettled and usually ended up in constant infighting that usually did mean English interference but not necessarily any invasion.
Another issue is the problems involved in raising armies in England and Scotland - neither country has (unlike some of the continental powers) a standing army - both countries are reliant on their nobility in raising troops to fight. More importantly to pay for any army Henry will have to go cap in hand to Parliament (and despite his popularity - I can't see them paying too much out not three times) - the vast fortune Henry VIII had inherited from his father was exhausted by the 1520's (spent on the early war with France his extravagance in trying to bribe the imperial electors in 1519 and on his court and palaces) so Parliament is one of his few options for raising cash for war - his income was relatively fixed throughout the reign only soaring after the reformation and at this period you have soaring inflation and growing wages......
That also means in your timeline that he's going to be looking for a wealthy second wife after Catherine's death - Claude of France is an obvious choice but an unlikely one - she is according to French law her mother's heir to the Duchy of Brittany - hence Louis XII's insistance on her marriage with his heir Francis I (in otl they were betrothed against her mothers wishes in 1506 and married in 1514) - so you need to give Louis XII an heir male by Anne of Brittany to enable Claude to marry Henry. Your alternate is to marry Henry to Rene of France (Louis XII's second daughter by Anne of Brittany) - Rene was an option for Henry on several occassions but she was born in 1510 so she won't be marriagable until 1525 at the earliest and in your timeline I suspect she would also be a strong possible for the young Prince of Wales (which would be interesting given that she would give the Tudor's a claim to Brittany and she became a great friend to Calvin and a devout Protestant).
Turning to Cleves - some questions: William of Cleves is born in 1516 he married in 1541 Maria of Austria (after his forced treaty with CHarles V over the Duchy of Guelders) - so when does he marry the much older Catherine of Austria. Or do you mean his father Duke John III - who married in 1509 Maria of Julich Berg mother of William, Sybella, Anne and Amelie. She died in otl in 1543 and that marriage was vital for the Cleves family being wealthy - so are you killing her off earlier when? John III was a moderate lutheran by the late 20's, William was strictly Lutheran while John III's wife remained Roman Catholic. John III would be a poor choice for Catherine of Austria in the mid 1520's (when she was eligible for marriage) when there are far better options (Henry VIII or his son, the King of Portugal would all appeal far more the Charles V ever concious of trying to break any Anglo French alliance)
Henry VIII's invasion of France in 1513 was prompted by his own ambitions of reviving the long lost angevin empire and at the prompting of Ferdinand of Aragon by whom he was treaty bound. If you remove Flodden you need to explain why Louis XII doesn't fall back on the usual French tactic of persuading the "auld" ally in Scotland to attack England when England invades in 1513 in support of Spain.
Even assuming your later death for James IV you have a regency (see the comments I made earlier about the likelihood of Margaret surrendering the regency to remarry - she was in reality quite a passionate woman, she was also a fond mother, I can't see her choosing a remarriage abroad unless forced into it) - Scots regencies were notoriously unsettled and usually ended up in constant infighting that usually did mean English interference but not necessarily any invasion.
Another issue is the problems involved in raising armies in England and Scotland - neither country has (unlike some of the continental powers) a standing army - both countries are reliant on their nobility in raising troops to fight. More importantly to pay for any army Henry will have to go cap in hand to Parliament (and despite his popularity - I can't see them paying too much out not three times) - the vast fortune Henry VIII had inherited from his father was exhausted by the 1520's (spent on the early war with France his extravagance in trying to bribe the imperial electors in 1519 and on his court and palaces) so Parliament is one of his few options for raising cash for war - his income was relatively fixed throughout the reign only soaring after the reformation and at this period you have soaring inflation and growing wages......
That also means in your timeline that he's going to be looking for a wealthy second wife after Catherine's death - Claude of France is an obvious choice but an unlikely one - she is according to French law her mother's heir to the Duchy of Brittany - hence Louis XII's insistance on her marriage with his heir Francis I (in otl they were betrothed against her mothers wishes in 1506 and married in 1514) - so you need to give Louis XII an heir male by Anne of Brittany to enable Claude to marry Henry. Your alternate is to marry Henry to Rene of France (Louis XII's second daughter by Anne of Brittany) - Rene was an option for Henry on several occassions but she was born in 1510 so she won't be marriagable until 1525 at the earliest and in your timeline I suspect she would also be a strong possible for the young Prince of Wales (which would be interesting given that she would give the Tudor's a claim to Brittany and she became a great friend to Calvin and a devout Protestant).
Turning to Cleves - some questions: William of Cleves is born in 1516 he married in 1541 Maria of Austria (after his forced treaty with CHarles V over the Duchy of Guelders) - so when does he marry the much older Catherine of Austria. Or do you mean his father Duke John III - who married in 1509 Maria of Julich Berg mother of William, Sybella, Anne and Amelie. She died in otl in 1543 and that marriage was vital for the Cleves family being wealthy - so are you killing her off earlier when? John III was a moderate lutheran by the late 20's, William was strictly Lutheran while John III's wife remained Roman Catholic. John III would be a poor choice for Catherine of Austria in the mid 1520's (when she was eligible for marriage) when there are far better options (Henry VIII or his son, the King of Portugal would all appeal far more the Charles V ever concious of trying to break any Anglo French alliance)
I have already established that Henry VIII married three times:
Catherine of Aragon d.1519
Claude of France d.1526
Eleanor of Austria d.1562
Also, on his father marrying Claude, any chance of Henry IX marying Renee would immediately be out as it would be in the prohibited degrees
P.S. It's John III,sorry
Catherine of Aragon d.1519
Claude of France d.1526
Eleanor of Austria d.1562
Also, on his father marrying Claude, any chance of Henry IX marying Renee would immediately be out as it would be in the prohibited degrees
P.S. It's John III,sorry
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Yes but Stephen how do you get rid of Claude's marriage to Francis I - they married in OTL in 1514 but were betrothed formally in 1506. I was assuming that in your TL Louis XII still dies in 1515 without a male heir and is succeeded by Francis of Anjouleme as Francis I. That marriage was entirely motivated by Louis XII's determination that the Duchy of Brittany remain tied to the French crown. Even if Claude's marriage hasn't taken part by the death of her father in your timeline there is no way Francis I isn't going to marry her to retain the Duchy. The only way Louis is going to permit Henry to marry Claude is if he has a surviving son by Anne of Brittany.
There is a way you could do it that would make sense - that is make one of Anne of Brittany's four stillborn sons survive. Say the Dauphin Louis born 1508 succeeds his father in 1515 as Louis XIII under the regency of Francis of Anjouleme.
Catherine of Aragon dies in childbirth in the same year perhaps - and to retain the french alliance Henry married Claude of France in 1516. However the young King of France dies in 1519 or 1520 say and Francis I succeeds - Henry VIII would then claim the Dukedom of Brittany in right of his wife and for any children they might have pushing Henry back into an alliance with the young Charles V. I can't see Henry gaining or holding the Duchy and in those circumstances its likely that Francis I will marry Renee of France and try and claim the Duchy through her.
I think your ideas are interesting but I think your proposed marriages and alliances leave a number of questions that would need answering before you could get them as you wish.
There is a way you could do it that would make sense - that is make one of Anne of Brittany's four stillborn sons survive. Say the Dauphin Louis born 1508 succeeds his father in 1515 as Louis XIII under the regency of Francis of Anjouleme.
Catherine of Aragon dies in childbirth in the same year perhaps - and to retain the french alliance Henry married Claude of France in 1516. However the young King of France dies in 1519 or 1520 say and Francis I succeeds - Henry VIII would then claim the Dukedom of Brittany in right of his wife and for any children they might have pushing Henry back into an alliance with the young Charles V. I can't see Henry gaining or holding the Duchy and in those circumstances its likely that Francis I will marry Renee of France and try and claim the Duchy through her.
I think your ideas are interesting but I think your proposed marriages and alliances leave a number of questions that would need answering before you could get them as you wish.
I have killed off Anne of Brittany in 1514 but she produces a living son=-Lous, who I later marry to Henry VIII's daughter Eleanor. However, he dies before they can produce children and the throne passes to the single child of the Louis XII-Mary Tudor alliance, Guillaume, who kept up the Auld Alliance by marrying Annabella of Scotland (1514-33). To keep ye happy, I let Ferdinand of Aragon die in 1513, leaving Germaine de Foix on the European marriage market, she then marries Francis of Angloueme and dies in 1517, Francis then marries Margaret Tudor who has entered an alliance with Henry tghat if Francis dies she is free to marry. Happy now?!
Much happier and its a brave man who can manage to get Mary Tudor pregnant by Louis XII in less than three months - so congratulations!
As to Margaret Tudor's marriage to Francis of Anjouleme all I will say is very very difficult to achieve based on what the woman was like. Given his personal reputation then I suspect rather like her actual second husband - she'd have been appealing to the pope for an annulment fairly sharpish!!
As to Margaret Tudor's marriage to Francis of Anjouleme all I will say is very very difficult to achieve based on what the woman was like. Given his personal reputation then I suspect rather like her actual second husband - she'd have been appealing to the pope for an annulment fairly sharpish!!
I make his marriage fairly similar to Francis' marriage to Claude in OTL:Margaret is perpetually pregnant. Then he dies of smallpox in early 1529, just as divorce proceedings were to go through.
In the 1530-40 region of time Tudors start marrying their cousins. As I said before, Guillaume I marries Annabella of Scotland and Henry IX's son Henry X marries their daughter Jeanne. Lots of inbreeding, lots of opportunities for insanity to pop yp. Cleves was famous for producing mad dukes. Henry IX has the porphyria and madness genes on both sides! Remember his aunt is locked up in Tordesillas.
In the 1530-40 region of time Tudors start marrying their cousins. As I said before, Guillaume I marries Annabella of Scotland and Henry IX's son Henry X marries their daughter Jeanne. Lots of inbreeding, lots of opportunities for insanity to pop yp. Cleves was famous for producing mad dukes. Henry IX has the porphyria and madness genes on both sides! Remember his aunt is locked up in Tordesillas.
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Standard AH 1: The English Reformation happens, and the resulting English Reformed Church is Calvinist, leading to a sternly Puritan England.
Standard AH 2: The English Reformation is suppressed, leading to a backward England under the thumb of the Church (per Kingsley Amis' The Alteration).
Variation 1: The Reformation happens, but ends up in something not unlike OTL Anglicanism.
Variation 2: The Reformation is averted, and the end result is an Anglo-Catholicism, orthodox in doctrine but still with a distinctly 'Anglican' flavor.
The case for either of the variations is that the English just didn't seem to be up for serious religious war and radicalism in either direction. They certainly had plenty of opportunities in OTL, with the state religion going from Catholic to schismatic to Protestant, back to Catholic again, then Protestant again - and for 20 years with an unmarried queen and Catholic heiress presumptive.
In a 'moderate' Catholic scenario, Henry VIII burns a couple of dozen Protestants in the 1530s, and that is pretty much the end of it. Most reform-minded English people will learn to steer a course just within safe bounds.
And Henry won't wait for Trent to undertake Church reform in England. Once Wolsey shuffles off the scene, you could see the rise in influence of people like More, rigidly orthodox in theology but well aware of the abuses in the church and the need to clean them up.
I can't say whether it has any bearing or not, but one thing that certainly was a factor in the minds of monarchs when it came to the Reformation was the opportunity to make a quick buck...or rather, a quick million pounds. The Church was extremely well-endowed with land and money. It may not be ethical, but a lot of rulers were swayed by the chance to raise easy money - I believe that I recall that Henry VIII made something like £800,000 from Church land sales, and used it all on modernising the coastline fortifications, something he had wanted to do from the start. I believe there is a fairly strong branch of thought in historians who believe that once Henry saw the probability of tensions with Rome over the Catherine of Aragon divorce thing, that the potential money pushed him into the Protestants' camp. Certainly you have to ask questions over ulterior motives when a Prince of Catholicism who is granted the title Defender of the Faith for his literature contributions to religion turns against the Pope over a petty divorce.