Hemu was a Hindu merchant who rose in wealth and power during the days of the Sur Empire, eventually becoming a general. In the turmoil that ensued in the 1550s, with said empire gradually tearing itself apart and the Mughals reasserting their presence in northern India, Hemu captured Delhi in October 1556 and took for himself the title of Vikramaditya, which was pretty much equivalent to that of emperor AFAIK. His reign was short lived however, since he was defeated by the Mughals at the Second Battle of Panipat and beheaded soon after.

So what if he wins that battle, either because he doesn't get hit in the eye by a very lucky arrow or because he doesn't lose all of his artillery in a previous engagement? How different would this "Hemuan empire" be, compared to the one established by the Mughals IOTL? I remember a very old post in this site saying that most of Akbar's reforms were actually started by Sher Shah Suri, so my guess is that there would be more similarities than differences between them. Did Hemu have an heir, and where else would his army march into if the chases the Mughal remnant all the way to the Khyber Pass? Would Tahmasp I shelter Akbar like he did with Humayun more than a decade before?
 
That he's proveably not Kshatrya will be discovered and disseminated sooner rather than later. Unless he converts to Islam, he has no legitimacy in North India, and if he does, he unites almost all of his coalition against him.
 
Hemu himself was a very capable leader and can most likely establish an empire in northern India. I don't think Mughals can come back from this defeat. However there is no evidence of Hemu having a son. One nephew of Hemu is mentioned as having taken part in the panipat war. So he may become Hemu's successor.
 
Hemu was Brahmin of Harayana , he could accept kshatriya Dharam to become king.
His new artillery pieces does not come gwalior.
Hemu had son who was kid and a nephew who was commanding army in the panipat.
Hemu had better chances of controlling Rajputana then Bairam khan and Akbar early year.
A defeat in Panipat means death of akbar.
Hemu empire will give rise of local noble at the place of mansab.
there will be more centralised control on the government then akbar .
There will be lower chances of fight with any Persian Empire for the Kandhar city , hemu will be happy by the Kabul .
- Also hemu home was built by Portuguese architecture.
 
Hemu's victory at Panipat would have likely to have butterflied a lot of events. There would be a good chance
of Vijayanagar being victorious at Talikota. The Sur Empire would be confined to the northern parts of India
No chance of expansion to southern India. The Portuguese would have become more powerful. Lesser chances
of British successes in the beginning. Less chance of a Maratha Empire. Phew! Indian History could have become different
 

prani

Banned
I really doubt the events as described by others would happen in the north, IMO his victory would just be the beginning of end of Islam as a political power in India. Hemu's win would mean the break up of larger polities in the northern part of the country, most of which would be under Hindu rule, Hemu would be unable to establish any form of kingdom let alone an empire and even he did, the empire would collapse soon after, resulting in the Balkanization of political entities in the North.

But I do agree that Mughal Rule is butterflied away and they would that weird Mongol-Timurid family that tried to establish power in India and a foot note in Indian History. I would say the Northern Part of the country would enter a period of prolonged warfare for about another 200 years until a native power, most probably a Hindu Dynasty, in the Madhyadesha region which at the time was still the core of the subcontinent would emerge and begin the task of uniting the various kingdoms up north.

Bengal would never emerge as the economic powerhouse which it was in the 1700s as Bengal was basically a product of Mughal political and economic investment and this would never happen in this timeline and Bengal would remain a mix of Hindu and traditional religions much like it's neighbors Assam was at the time

Islam in south Asia would be Nerfed, probably no more than 12 percent of the population might adhere to Islam, scattered all over the country but they would occupy high offices and you know still be the community that places a important role in Trade and commerce especially along the Silk Road and without the import of large number of Persians or Khorasani nobles or educated elites from those regions Islam would get a strong local flavor.

Hinduism IMO would reform itself as it's adherents in various parts of the region would once again gain political power and patronage to various local variety of Hindu centers of learning and various new cults and sects would emerge in different region eventually would culminate in a particular school of thought or sect gaining political dominance, probably Sikhism emerges as the majority religion in Punjab and would probably remain as a part of wider Hindu thought and may or may not emerge as a independent religion and parts of Islam would enter Hindu religion as much as local Hindu sects and cults influencing Islam leading to different Hindu sects similar to that of Sikhism emerging in different parts of the subcontinent.
these are stuff at the top of my head
 
Hemu's win would mean the break up of larger polities in the northern part of the country, most of which would be under Hindu rule, Hemu would be unable to establish any form of kingdom let alone an empire and even he did, the empire would collapse soon after, resulting in the Balkanization of political entities in the North.
Hemu was Brahmins , he could easily adopt Rajput clans as his vessel.
Only hindu power in North which can fight with him was of sisodiya royal house, which can be taken into Royal confederation by Anulom marriage .
The second power which will fight with hemu will be Bengal sultanates , that's why hemu will keep Sur Sultan as his name sake sovereign.
Remember Hemu was merchant of Gun powder and have more familiarity with artillery and Gun then Horse Archer . That's why he will give more importance to Gun powder infantry which will broke the curse of horse on India .
The decrease of import of horse in india will make the economic situation of north western kingdom situated in Kandhar and Samarkand worst . Which will further erode the power of this nomadic tribes to attack indian border .
The wealth save from this costly import will make any Northern Indian kingdom treasury surplus to make a highly trained arm.
a surplus treasury to support a gunpowder empire with natural mine of salt-peater .
Islam in south Asia would be Nerfed, probably no more than 12 percent of the population might adhere to Islam, scattered all over the country but they would occupy high offices and you know still be the community that places a important role in Trade and commerce
Muslim when British come were only 13-14% , if no Mughal empire then it will be reduced to 3-5 %.

they would that weird Mongol-Timurid family that tried to establish power in India and a foot note in Indian History.
They will seen as continuation of Delhi Sultanate , until hindu revival.
 

prani

Banned
They will seen as continuation of Delhi Sultanate , until hindu revival.
I don't think so, after what Timur did, Delhi sultanate is long gone, even the lodhis barely were able to hold on to Delhi, they weren't in control beyond a few cities, if hemu is successful we will see a fragmentation of kingdoms and empires up north for a very long time and it's not necessary that the biggest power has to be a islamic one, granted there will be a lot of sultanates but i don't think they would be in a position to dominate over the other kingdoms.

Muslim when British come were only 13-14% , if no Mughal empire then it will be reduced to 3-5 %.
Maybe but did we have census that kept track of population back in the 17 th century? No, it's a matter of conjecture, you may be correct or i maybe correct but we have no way of verifying it, all we have to go by is heresay or statistics of few areas.

artillery and Gun then Horse Archer . That's why he will give more importance to Gun powder infantry which will broke the curse of horse on India .
This is only reason why i said a native hindu dynasty would eventually win, that and most of castes that were into metallurgy were Hindus so it's only logical that a Hindu power would rise.
 
took for himself the title of Vikramaditya, which was pretty much equivalent to that of emperor AFAIK
Just taking a title means nothing. He at the head of an army proclaimed himself Vikramaditya (meaning Valour like Sun rather than emperor), which we don't know how serious the claim was, considering that the claim could have been just a title as a victor and nothing more and given the composition of his forces with many afghans and other muslims, declaring independence could have monumentally backfired. He till his death never formally broke with his sovereign and declared a proper independence, so I would take an independent claim with a grain of salt.
How different would this "Hemuan empire" be, compared to the one established by the Mughals IOTL?
His mere existence doesn't mean anything, the most likely scenario, which is making a big assumption that the would take over the Sur Empire is that we see a steady continuation of the policies of the Sur empire as had been seen in the reign of Sher Shah Suri. He was a servant of that empire and spent a great deal of his career in that empire's service, so he would most likely continue with such policies, a secular empire with a focus on trade and administrative efficiency, lessons probably would have been learned from the unravelling of the Sur Empire after the death of Sher Shah Suri. The trade route projects would have been completed earlier and we would have seen a growth in Indian Industrial trade and many of Akbar's officials like Raja Birbal and Man Singh would have probably joined his court and most prominently Raja Todar Mal would have continued his revenue reforms.
Hemu empire will give rise of local noble at the place of mansab.
there will be more centralised control on the government then akbar
Well it seems contradictory. A local noble in charge means decentralization, mansabdari system before corruption came in was actually a step forward towards centralisation as persons not locals are appointed in a particular area, the only plausible way to go forward is to have something like Mahalwari System.
There would be a good chance
of Vijayanagar being victorious at Talikota.
And your reasoning for that being?
Hemu's win would mean the break up of larger polities in the northern part of the country, most of which would be under Hindu rule, Hemu would be unable to establish any form of kingdom let alone an empire and even he did, the empire would collapse soon after, resulting in the Balkanization of political entities in the North.
If he kicks out the Mughals and breaks the back of the Sur Empire and most plausibly struggles then I see a similar balkanization with plenty of Hindu and Muslim kingdoms.
Bengal would never emerge as the economic powerhouse which it was in the 1700s as Bengal was basically a product of Mughal political and economic investment and this would never happen in this timeline and Bengal would remain a mix of Hindu and traditional religions much like it's neighbors Assam was at the time
Bengal was already quite a wealthy region due to overseas trade in relation to the other parts of India. Without Mughals the economic situation doesn't grow to the mammoth proportions to the levels OTL but is still quite large, projects like Sher Shah's Grand Trunk Road only increases the hinterland of Bengal and encourages growth. I guess you didn't know that Bengal was already majority Muslim by this point in time, with the shift in the main distributary of the Ganga from the Hugli to the Padma settlement in the previously densely forested east increased and during that time the Muslim Rule in Bengal was established and settlement was like a frontier society where a village is created by burning out a clearing and establishing a mosque and a few huts. Is encouraged massive settlement and conversion, creating a region with Muslim majority thousand+ kms from the next Muslim majority region. The caste system in Bengal, also comprising a system known as the kulin system was a social evil that made other social evils of India look tame didn't help matters either. The Sena dynasty in its persecution of Buddhism had come up with that scheme and the surviving Buddhists found the invading Muslims to be liberators and were the bulk of the converts.
Hinduism IMO would reform itself as it's adherents in various parts of the region would once again gain political power and patronage to various local variety of Hindu centers of learning and various new cults and sects would emerge in different region eventually would culminate in a particular school of thought or sect gaining political dominance, probably Sikhism emerges as the majority religion in Punjab and would probably remain as a part of wider Hindu thought and may or may not emerge as a independent religion and parts of Islam would enter Hindu religion as much as local Hindu sects and cults influencing Islam leading to different Hindu sects similar to that of Sikhism emerging in different parts of the subcontinent.
The Bhakti movement was slowly losing steam and if it continued a lot many reforms could have been achieved. The lack of growth of Islam in Punjab surely leads to more Sikhism or does it? The significantly altered dynamics may lead it to go either way.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I really doubt the events as described by others would happen in the north, IMO his victory would just be the beginning of end of Islam as a political power in India. Hemu's win would mean the break up of larger polities in the northern part of the country, most of which would be under Hindu rule, Hemu would be unable to establish any form of kingdom let alone an empire and even he did, the empire would collapse soon after, resulting in the Balkanization of political entities in the North.

But I do agree that Mughal Rule is butterflied away and they would that weird Mongol-Timurid family that tried to establish power in India and a foot note in Indian History. I would say the Northern Part of the country would enter a period of prolonged warfare for about another 200 years until a native power, most probably a Hindu Dynasty, in the Madhyadesha region which at the time was still the core of the subcontinent would emerge and begin the task of uniting the various kingdoms up north.

Bengal would never emerge as the economic powerhouse which it was in the 1700s as Bengal was basically a product of Mughal political and economic investment and this would never happen in this timeline and Bengal would remain a mix of Hindu and traditional religions much like it's neighbors Assam was at the time

Islam in south Asia would be Nerfed, probably no more than 12 percent of the population might adhere to Islam, scattered all over the country but they would occupy high offices and you know still be the community that places a important role in Trade and commerce especially along the Silk Road and without the import of large number of Persians or Khorasani nobles or educated elites from those regions Islam would get a strong local flavor.

Hinduism IMO would reform itself as it's adherents in various parts of the region would once again gain political power and patronage to various local variety of Hindu centers of learning and various new cults and sects would emerge in different region eventually would culminate in a particular school of thought or sect gaining political dominance, probably Sikhism emerges as the majority religion in Punjab and would probably remain as a part of wider Hindu thought and may or may not emerge as a independent religion and parts of Islam would enter Hindu religion as much as local Hindu sects and cults influencing Islam leading to different Hindu sects similar to that of Sikhism emerging in different parts of the subcontinent.
these are stuff at the top of my head
On the point of Assam I’d have to disagree. Hinduism particularly a strong brand of vaishnavism was very strong at this point, and was growing in strength once Sankardevs version bexame popular.
 

prani

Banned
On the point of Assam I’d have to disagree. Hinduism particularly a strong brand of vaishnavism was very strong at this point, and was growing in strength once Sankardevs version bexame popular.
oh missed that, does that mean Bengal goes the same way?
 
I would agree what Rajveer says. If Hemu does emerge victorious he won't be overthrowing the Suris has his political power comes from them and majority of the soldiers in his army were Afghans. There is a chance that Hemu could become something like a figure controlling things from behind the throne as the later Suris were not that good at ruling.

Hemu being a saltpetre merchant could see some advancement in gunpowder but hey that's just my wishful thinking ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯.

Of course, the Sur empire might disintegrate after a couple of decades but changes would be abound in large parts of India.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
oh missed that, does that mean Bengal goes the same way?
I think as @Rajveer Naha said Bengals status as a Muslim majority state was pretty cemented at this point so I’m not sure if it would. Unless the Ahoms or another dynasty try and restore the ancient boundaries of Kamarupa
 

prani

Banned
guess you didn't know that Bengal was already majority Muslim by this point in time, with the shift in the main distributary of the Ganga from the Hugli to the Padma settlement in the previously densely forested east increased and during that time the Muslim Rule in Bengal was established and settlement was like a frontier society where a village is created by burning out a clearing and establishing a mosque and a few huts. Is encouraged massive settlement and conversion, creating a region with Muslim majority thousand+ kms from the next Muslim majority region
I know...but i think Eastern Part of Bengal became Muslim majority only in the Mughal rule, not that Mughals proselytized, they gave a lot of land grants to the Mosques and to the mullahs and to the other pilgrims from mecca who had undertaken to clear the land to grow crops, a process that accelerated during the Mughal rule Islam in Bengal expanded by the plough as you said but i strongly disagree as to when it became a Muslim majority,

Bengal was already quite a wealthy region due to overseas trade in relation to the other parts of India. Without Mughals the economic situation doesn't grow to the mammoth proportions to the levels OTL but is still quite large, projects like Sher Shah's Grand Trunk Road only increases the hinterland of Bengal and encourages growth
What evidence says that? cause from archeological evidence from period prior to the Mughals during the Delhi sultanate era, peninsular India was the more wealthier part in south Asia as that region took more active part in a lot of trade on both side of the coast, prominent example being the Vijayanagara more so than the Bahamani sultanate after 1336 they grew rich from Spice and cotton trade. With the establishment of trade with Europeans did Bengal become the richest part of South Asia. . Just look at the infrastructure, peninsular kingdoms at this point in time established a lot of infrastructure for general public use, more so than Bengal. That is my metric. Not only temples but you also had money going in for canals to trade house and other infrastructure that you associate with Urbanization . It also shows that they had a lot to surplus resources. Basically at this point Peninsula India was more Urban than Bengal with a very high level of monetization of the economy which is why i disagree with you assessment that Bengal was already wealthy in relation to other parts of India, which it simply was not may, be richer than Punjab but definitely not the peninsular India and Peninsular India did not have a large Mosquito infected swamp that Southern Bengal was and swamps are not good for urbanization or for agriculture, yes you can grow good quantity of rice but best of luck surviving malaria and other swamp diseases out there not that there was no malaria in the south but it was to a lesser degree vis a vis Bengal.

The caste system in Bengal, also comprising a system known as the kulin system was a social evil that made other social evils of India look tame didn't help matters either. The Sena dynasty in its persecution of Buddhism had come up with that scheme and the surviving Buddhists found the invading Muslims to be liberators and were the bulk of the converts.
ok? but did not make Bengal a Muslim Majority region, that took place much later even if we assume your timeline of events are correct.

The Bhakti movement was slowly losing steam and if it continued a lot many reforms could have been achieved. The lack of growth of Islam in Punjab surely leads to more Sikhism or does it? The significantly altered dynamics may lead it to go either way.
hard to say what would happen but Islam would be a much smaller population if Hemu ends up destroying the Mughal power and as i suspect with the decay of the Sur power, north India would be thrown into chaos but for how long? and what polity would the Darwinian style survival of the fittest scene produce?
 
How plausible would it be for Hemu to gain the personal loyalty of the men under his command, then use said army to take over what's left of the Sur Empire?
 
Restarting this thread t ask, is there a chance the Sur Empire could stabilize itself, whether under a genuinely independent ruler or with Hemu serving as a puppetmaster, if the Mughals are defeated for good?
 
Restarting this thread t ask, is there a chance the Sur Empire could stabilize itself, whether under a genuinely independent ruler or with Hemu serving as a puppetmaster, if the Mughals are defeated for good?
In india for continuous muslim rule two things you need , a revenue system which can absorb and collect major chunk of land produce as revenue and second continueous supply of Arabic horse .
The if Mughal were defeated in panipat then whole mughal empire will die before it's start.
Hemu will rule as puppet master and will dispose Suri Dynasty.
 
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