Hail, Britannia
- Thread starter LeinadB93
- Start date
Posting this again just in case people missed it.
Hail, Britannia has a Discord!
We've just added a channel for the other bit of the TL, Stargate Ad Astra and there's some interesting conversations about it there.
You can request a role that allows you to get exclusive sneak peeks of stuff to come.
Plus, British party roles from the big three to the minor Republicans!
Hail, Britannia has a Discord!
We've just added a channel for the other bit of the TL, Stargate Ad Astra and there's some interesting conversations about it there.
You can request a role that allows you to get exclusive sneak peeks of stuff to come.
Plus, British party roles from the big three to the minor Republicans!
Premiers of New York and Long Island
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
A bit of housekeeping. The list of premiers of the City of New York and Long Island. Massive credit to @Turquoise Blue as this is mostly all her:
Premiers of the City of New York and Long Island (1866–)
Premiers of the City of New York and Long Island (1866–)
11. 1866–1871 Maarten Kalbfleisch (Loyalist majority)
12. 1871–1872 Horace Greeley† (Radical–Liberal majority coalition)
13. 1872–1875 Robbert Roosevelt (Liberal majority)
14. 1875–1881 William Tweed (People's Society majority)
15. 1881–1887 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government majority) (1st)
16. 1887–1888 Henry George (Anti-Monopolist majority) (1st)
15. 1888–1888 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government minority) (2nd)
16. 1888–1895 Henry George (Anti-Monopolist majority) (2nd)
15. 1895–1899 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government minority) (3rd)
17. 1899–1905 Robert Van Wyck (Metropolitan League majority)
18. 1905–1919 William Randolph Hearst (Municipal Ownership majority)
19. 1919–1921 Moishe Hillkowitz (People's Democratic–Municipal Ownership majority coalition) (1st)
10. 1921–1926 Jimmy Walker (Metropolitan Welfare majority)
11. 1926–1926 Robert Wagner (Metropolitan Welfare majority)
19. 1926–1930 Moishe Hillkowitz (People's Democratic majority) (2nd)
12. 1930–1946 Fiorello La Guardia (Progressive-Good Government majority)
13. 1946–1949 Vito Marcantonio (People's Democratic majority)
14. 1949–1957 Newbold Morris (Progressive-Good Government majority)
15. 1957–1962 Ferdinand Pecora (United City majority, then United City minority)
16. 1962–1970 Vincent Impellitteri (Democratic Alternative minority, then Democratic Alternative–Progressive majority coalition)
17. 1970–1977 John Lindsay (Renew New York majority)
18. 1977–1982 Bella Abzug (People's Democratic–Democratic Alternative majority coalition) (1st)
19. 1982–1982 Mario Biaggi (Non-Partisan League minority)
18. 1982–1985 Bella Abzug (Democratic majority) (2nd)
20. 1985–1987 Mario Cuomo (Democratic majority)
21. 1987–1991 Harold Hollenbeck (Non-Partisan League–Renew New York majority coalition)
22. 1991–1999 Michael Bloomberg (Movement for Betterment–Renew New York majority coalition)
23. 1999–2005 Rick Lazio (Renew New York–Movement for Betterment majority coalition, then Renew New York majority)
24. 2005–2011 Fernando Ferrer (Democratic–People's Voice majority coalition)
25. 2011–2017 Bill de Blasio (Democratic–People's Voice majority coalition)
12. 1871–1872 Horace Greeley† (Radical–Liberal majority coalition)
13. 1872–1875 Robbert Roosevelt (Liberal majority)
14. 1875–1881 William Tweed (People's Society majority)
15. 1881–1887 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government majority) (1st)
16. 1887–1888 Henry George (Anti-Monopolist majority) (1st)
15. 1888–1888 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government minority) (2nd)
16. 1888–1895 Henry George (Anti-Monopolist majority) (2nd)
15. 1895–1899 Seth Low (Progressive-Good Government minority) (3rd)
17. 1899–1905 Robert Van Wyck (Metropolitan League majority)
18. 1905–1919 William Randolph Hearst (Municipal Ownership majority)
19. 1919–1921 Moishe Hillkowitz (People's Democratic–Municipal Ownership majority coalition) (1st)
10. 1921–1926 Jimmy Walker (Metropolitan Welfare majority)
11. 1926–1926 Robert Wagner (Metropolitan Welfare majority)
19. 1926–1930 Moishe Hillkowitz (People's Democratic majority) (2nd)
12. 1930–1946 Fiorello La Guardia (Progressive-Good Government majority)
13. 1946–1949 Vito Marcantonio (People's Democratic majority)
14. 1949–1957 Newbold Morris (Progressive-Good Government majority)
15. 1957–1962 Ferdinand Pecora (United City majority, then United City minority)
16. 1962–1970 Vincent Impellitteri (Democratic Alternative minority, then Democratic Alternative–Progressive majority coalition)
17. 1970–1977 John Lindsay (Renew New York majority)
18. 1977–1982 Bella Abzug (People's Democratic–Democratic Alternative majority coalition) (1st)
19. 1982–1982 Mario Biaggi (Non-Partisan League minority)
18. 1982–1985 Bella Abzug (Democratic majority) (2nd)
20. 1985–1987 Mario Cuomo (Democratic majority)
21. 1987–1991 Harold Hollenbeck (Non-Partisan League–Renew New York majority coalition)
22. 1991–1999 Michael Bloomberg (Movement for Betterment–Renew New York majority coalition)
23. 1999–2005 Rick Lazio (Renew New York–Movement for Betterment majority coalition, then Renew New York majority)
24. 2005–2011 Fernando Ferrer (Democratic–People's Voice majority coalition)
25. 2011–2017 Bill de Blasio (Democratic–People's Voice majority coalition)
Tammany Parties
Before the 1960s, NY politics was famously inscrutable, with the "fusion" system meaning there was a gaggle of different parties overlapping and somehow governments were formed with a stable majority due to very low party loyalty, a culture of opportunism and the strong influence of machines. Tammany Hall was one such machine, but in NY, it wasn't even a majority. Sometimes, those mirage parties became some sort of reality, like with La Guardia and the Progressive-Good Government League, but upon the death or retirement of a strong leader, those parties often just dissolved back to ethereal nothingness. Then came the 60s.
Vincent Impellitteri was hardly the best choice for a reformer. He was on paper a member of the "United City League", the latest front for Tammany, which just managed to return to power through momentum and opportunistic members defecting to back its leader. And to many he seemed like just yet another Tammany man. But he often clashed with the "boss" at the time and upon being told he would not receive the United City line because of this, he bolted and with other opportunists set up the "Democratic Alternative".
At first it was only a name. A catchy name, but merely one. But then some of their politicians noticed that when they started talking about "reform of the electoral system", they got interest. NY people were generally unhappy with their system that seemed to remove decision from their hands and put it into vague interests. So the decision was made, to implement electoral reform. And as the party gained steam, more and more defectors applied for the DA fusion line. United City did all they could and reduced the potential government to a minority. Eager to throw out the potential reform, they were shocked to see the Progressives [well, what members counted as such] throw their hats in with Impellitteri. Electoral reform would end up abolishing fusion for good.
Over the following decades, the New York political system cemented itself. DA ended up merging with the left-wing PDP to form the Democratic Party, the Progressives had a split that led to John Lindsay's Renew New York, the conservatives and some disgruntled "traditionalist" workers formed the Non-Partisan League, and those became the main three parties of this New York.
Oh, sure there were still upsets, like when Michael Bloomberg's Movement for Betterment surged to a shock first in 1991 riding off high disillusionment with the "big three", but things seem to be much more stable. But as we enter the fourteenth year of left-wing rule, perhaps New York just exchanged fusionist chaos for eternal proportional rule by Democrats?
Before the 1960s, NY politics was famously inscrutable, with the "fusion" system meaning there was a gaggle of different parties overlapping and somehow governments were formed with a stable majority due to very low party loyalty, a culture of opportunism and the strong influence of machines. Tammany Hall was one such machine, but in NY, it wasn't even a majority. Sometimes, those mirage parties became some sort of reality, like with La Guardia and the Progressive-Good Government League, but upon the death or retirement of a strong leader, those parties often just dissolved back to ethereal nothingness. Then came the 60s.
Vincent Impellitteri was hardly the best choice for a reformer. He was on paper a member of the "United City League", the latest front for Tammany, which just managed to return to power through momentum and opportunistic members defecting to back its leader. And to many he seemed like just yet another Tammany man. But he often clashed with the "boss" at the time and upon being told he would not receive the United City line because of this, he bolted and with other opportunists set up the "Democratic Alternative".
At first it was only a name. A catchy name, but merely one. But then some of their politicians noticed that when they started talking about "reform of the electoral system", they got interest. NY people were generally unhappy with their system that seemed to remove decision from their hands and put it into vague interests. So the decision was made, to implement electoral reform. And as the party gained steam, more and more defectors applied for the DA fusion line. United City did all they could and reduced the potential government to a minority. Eager to throw out the potential reform, they were shocked to see the Progressives [well, what members counted as such] throw their hats in with Impellitteri. Electoral reform would end up abolishing fusion for good.
Over the following decades, the New York political system cemented itself. DA ended up merging with the left-wing PDP to form the Democratic Party, the Progressives had a split that led to John Lindsay's Renew New York, the conservatives and some disgruntled "traditionalist" workers formed the Non-Partisan League, and those became the main three parties of this New York.
Oh, sure there were still upsets, like when Michael Bloomberg's Movement for Betterment surged to a shock first in 1991 riding off high disillusionment with the "big three", but things seem to be much more stable. But as we enter the fourteenth year of left-wing rule, perhaps New York just exchanged fusionist chaos for eternal proportional rule by Democrats?
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New York is quite of something on everything. On his own way to get politics done, I find interesting this "non-republican" fall of Tammany Hall along fusion tickets by the 1960s. As well, an early "consolidation" it's a cool idea. But I gotta curious on a single thing: what is Frank Sinatra doing TTL?
EDIT: Can I join the Discord channel even don't being a 'major' contributor of this?
EDIT: Can I join the Discord channel even don't being a 'major' contributor of this?
Please submit this to Leinad privately before posting it here. Thank you.
May I just say that I'm dying to know what a subway map of this place looks like?Here you go:
The City of New York and Long Island encompasses fourteen county-level administrative divisions called boroughs. Each of the boroughs is coextensive with an historic county that existed in the province prior to New York's consolidation as a "city-province", and each has an elected Borough Council and Borough Mayor, separate to the administration of New York. Most boroughs existed as counties prior to 1895, although The Bronx separated from Westchester in 1898 and in 1915 Greenburgh and Yonkers split from Westchester. The eastern part of Queens was split off in 1899 to become Nassau, and in 1997 the five easternmost towns of Suffolk, along with the Shinnecock Indian Reservations, separated to form the new borough of Peconic.
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
Hadn’t given Sinatra much thought TBH...
Of course you can join the Discord channel
May I just say that I'm dying to know what a subway map of this place looks like?
Oh now I have to make one!!!
Not at all, PM/DM me your ideas
Interesting... @FleetMac has done a lot of work on the Royal Navy so might be good to get some input...
Very good question. I don't know, but I figure he's probably some sort of political commentator or doing something in That London.
Great to see this world is still expanding! I do have some questions about a few things we don't completely know.
How is Japan's history ITTL compared to OTL? Considering that Japan didn't really open up until it was forced to by the US in 1853 OTL, does it also encounter a rude awakening by the British or some other foreign country? And from what I can gather, Japanese treatment of their colonies was improved compared to OTL, so does that mean that British influence had a greater effect on Japan's modernization and political change?
For Vietnam, who colonized it and how did it fare after the Second World War? I suspect that it was colonized by the French, as IOTL, and noticing that there was a country called Tonkin referenced in one of your wikiboxes, would it be factual to assume that there was some sort of Vietnam War as IOTL?
Finally, was there anything resembling a "Red Scare" that occurred ITTL? Considering the Russian Revolution and the Alaskan Uprising, I wouldn't be surprised if the United Empire felt a little paranoid over the threat of Commies.
Thank you for spending time to work on it!
How is Japan's history ITTL compared to OTL? Considering that Japan didn't really open up until it was forced to by the US in 1853 OTL, does it also encounter a rude awakening by the British or some other foreign country? And from what I can gather, Japanese treatment of their colonies was improved compared to OTL, so does that mean that British influence had a greater effect on Japan's modernization and political change?
For Vietnam, who colonized it and how did it fare after the Second World War? I suspect that it was colonized by the French, as IOTL, and noticing that there was a country called Tonkin referenced in one of your wikiboxes, would it be factual to assume that there was some sort of Vietnam War as IOTL?
Finally, was there anything resembling a "Red Scare" that occurred ITTL? Considering the Russian Revolution and the Alaskan Uprising, I wouldn't be surprised if the United Empire felt a little paranoid over the threat of Commies.
Thank you for spending time to work on it!
Leinad already covered that.
Vietnam was unified under the southern regime at the end of the Second Indochina War (TTL's Vietnam War), today it is the United Vietnamese Republic. Korea is a united Empire under the House of Yi, and along with Manchuria is a close ally of Japan. Both Vietnam and Korea, along with most East and Southeast Asian states are part of the Japanese-led East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
Thank you
I'm glad you are enjoying the series.I'm assuming Japan is opened up by Britain in a similar fashion to OTL. Actually prior to the mid-1920s, Japan is much as OTL, with the exception of a continuing Anglo-Japanese Alliance (the result of no USA to drawn Britain's allegiances in the Pacific). Though Britain's influence means Korea is a protectorate, rather than a direct colony. A more aggressive and nationalist China, with better industry than OTL, means Japan was beaten back during the Chinese Wars of Expansions from their gains in the early 20th century. I think prior to 1946, Japan was quasi-fascist with a government much like OTL, but the trauma of the war, specifically the siege mentality of the Battle of Japan, gave rise to democratic and cultural reforms akin to OTL post-war Japan.
Vietnam is colonised by France as OTL. It's fate after the Second World War is a bit up in the air at the moment. Upon reading up on more of Vietnam's history, the French colony was defacto partitioned into Cochinchina, Annam and Tonkin after the First Indochina War. Eventually the Second Indochina War breaks out as the OTL Vietnam War, but the weaker Communist position worldwide means they fail to conquer the entire nation. Post-war Vietnam is divided into three states, the western-aligned Republic of Cochinchina, the neutral buffer State of Annam (monarchy), and the Soviet-aligned Socialist Republic of Tonkin. I figure this calcifies throughout the Cold War, with Cochinchina in the Commonwealth and CDP (amybe...) whilst Tonkin joins the Soviet bloc, but in the 1990s there is the formation of a "Union of Vietnam" between the three states, or maybe they remain separate... Not sure yet...
Oh definitely! Especially after the Alaskan Uprising, with a much more extreme Red Scare. A second one occurs to a lesser extent (in comparison) after the Second World War.
Solomon Islands; 2018 state election
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
With the four-year anniversary tomorrow, I wanted to get this out before then. Plus I get to show off the map I made
There's a surprise in store tomorrow
The Solomon Islands is a state of the Commonwealth of Australia lying to the northeast of the state of Queensland, southeast of the Australian territory of Bougainville and northwest of the British overseas territory of Vanuatu. An archipelagic state covering much of the Solomon Islands archipelago, from which the state takes its name, the Solomon Islands covers six major islands and over 900 smaller islands. With a total land area of 28,400 square kilometres and a population of 640,000, Solomon Islands is the smallest Australian state by area and the second-smallest by population.
The islands have been inhabited for thousands of years, by various Papuan, Austronesian and Polynesian peoples. The first European to the visit the islands was the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña de Neira in 1568, who travelled across the Pacific Ocean from Peru. The earliest and most frequent foreign visitors were British whaling vessels from Australia and North America, using the islands as bases for food, wood and water from the late 18th century. Although relations between the islanders and visiting sailors were not always good, sometimes there was violence and bloodshed, later vessels would take aboard islanders to serve as crewmen. Christian missionaries began visiting the islands in the mid-19th century, although their progress was hampered by the brutal kidnapping of labourers for sugar plantations in Queensland and Fiji, resulting in a series of reprisals and massacres that culminated in the declaration of a British protectorate over the southern Solomons on 15 March 1893. Between 1893 and 1900 more outlying islands were added to the protectorate, until it covered the remainder of the archipelago with the exception of Bougainvile which remained under German administration as part of their colony of New Guinea. By the 1910s most of the population had converted to Christianity, and several British firms began large-scale coconut planting, triggering extensive economic growth throughout the islands.
With the outbreak of the East Asian War in 1937, many planters and traders were evacuated and most cultivation ceased, particularly after Kuomintang China joined the Axis in 1941. Chinese forces invaded the islands in January 1942, and the Solomon Islands campaign (1942-1945) saw some of the most fierce and bloody fighting in East Asia during the war, as British Commonwealth forces fought against and eventually liberated the islands from Chinese occupation. The war devastated the islands economy, and the post-war reconstruction saw the transformation of the islanders' traditional ways of life with the introduction of modern materials and machinery, developing a more diversified economy less dependent on the pre-war plantations. The creation of local councils in the 1950s led to the increased involvement of Solomon Islanders in the governance of the colonies, which from 1960 took place through the Legislative Council. As the colonial leadership gradually transitioned to home rule, with positions either directly elected or appointed by electoral colleges, debates turned to the future constitutional status. As late as 1970, the British Government did not envisage independence for the islands, although the independence of British Papua in 1975 influenced the debate.
Outside of a small elite in the capital, there was little in the way of an indigenous independence movement, and many Solomon Islanders were ambivalent about the continuation of the status quo under British rule. On 7 July 1978, the Solomon Islands, along with the neighbouring territory of Bougainville, was incorporated into the Commonwealth of Australia as the nation's sixth state. Although the islands were admitted to the Commonwealth after the end of the "White Australia" policy, limitations were placed on freedom of movement to the Australian mainland until 1990 to allow for the economic development of the islands to reach a par with the rest of the country. Ethnic violence was also a concern between the various groups in the Solomon Islands, in particular the fair distribution of economic investment and use of resources on Guadalcanal, and civil unrest would continue until the 1998 Honiara Accords led by Chief Minister Sir Francis Billy Hilly. The Solomon Islands still lags behind the rest of Australia in terms of economic development, but the state is experiencing rapid growth in its manufacturing and resource extraction industries. Tourism is also a key part of the islands economy, alongside fishing and sustainable exports of copra, palm oil and timber.
The 2018 Solomon Islands state election was held on 10 February 2018 to elect, under the instant runoff voting system, the 50 members of the State Assembly of the Solomon Islands. Each member of the legislature is elected from a single-member district of roughly equal population.
The incumbent coalition government led by the centre-left Labour Party, under Chief Minister Gordon Darcy Lilo, supported by the left-wing regionalist United Islands, lost their majority in the State Assembly. The opposition centre-right Democrats, under new leader Matthew Wale, secured a plurality in the assembly but fell short of an overall majority. The centre-right Nationals, which advocate pro-Australian and pro-business policies, surged in support, largely amongst the white and growing urban population of the islands, securing third place in the assembly. The United Islands saw a slight increase in their share of the vote, but retained their three seats, while the centrist liberal and ecological Alliance lost one of their two seats. The Democrats secured a coalition agreement with the Nationals, with Wale appointed as seventh chief minister.
There's a surprise in store tomorrow
The Solomon Islands is a state of the Commonwealth of Australia lying to the northeast of the state of Queensland, southeast of the Australian territory of Bougainville and northwest of the British overseas territory of Vanuatu. An archipelagic state covering much of the Solomon Islands archipelago, from which the state takes its name, the Solomon Islands covers six major islands and over 900 smaller islands. With a total land area of 28,400 square kilometres and a population of 640,000, Solomon Islands is the smallest Australian state by area and the second-smallest by population.
The islands have been inhabited for thousands of years, by various Papuan, Austronesian and Polynesian peoples. The first European to the visit the islands was the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña de Neira in 1568, who travelled across the Pacific Ocean from Peru. The earliest and most frequent foreign visitors were British whaling vessels from Australia and North America, using the islands as bases for food, wood and water from the late 18th century. Although relations between the islanders and visiting sailors were not always good, sometimes there was violence and bloodshed, later vessels would take aboard islanders to serve as crewmen. Christian missionaries began visiting the islands in the mid-19th century, although their progress was hampered by the brutal kidnapping of labourers for sugar plantations in Queensland and Fiji, resulting in a series of reprisals and massacres that culminated in the declaration of a British protectorate over the southern Solomons on 15 March 1893. Between 1893 and 1900 more outlying islands were added to the protectorate, until it covered the remainder of the archipelago with the exception of Bougainvile which remained under German administration as part of their colony of New Guinea. By the 1910s most of the population had converted to Christianity, and several British firms began large-scale coconut planting, triggering extensive economic growth throughout the islands.
With the outbreak of the East Asian War in 1937, many planters and traders were evacuated and most cultivation ceased, particularly after Kuomintang China joined the Axis in 1941. Chinese forces invaded the islands in January 1942, and the Solomon Islands campaign (1942-1945) saw some of the most fierce and bloody fighting in East Asia during the war, as British Commonwealth forces fought against and eventually liberated the islands from Chinese occupation. The war devastated the islands economy, and the post-war reconstruction saw the transformation of the islanders' traditional ways of life with the introduction of modern materials and machinery, developing a more diversified economy less dependent on the pre-war plantations. The creation of local councils in the 1950s led to the increased involvement of Solomon Islanders in the governance of the colonies, which from 1960 took place through the Legislative Council. As the colonial leadership gradually transitioned to home rule, with positions either directly elected or appointed by electoral colleges, debates turned to the future constitutional status. As late as 1970, the British Government did not envisage independence for the islands, although the independence of British Papua in 1975 influenced the debate.
Outside of a small elite in the capital, there was little in the way of an indigenous independence movement, and many Solomon Islanders were ambivalent about the continuation of the status quo under British rule. On 7 July 1978, the Solomon Islands, along with the neighbouring territory of Bougainville, was incorporated into the Commonwealth of Australia as the nation's sixth state. Although the islands were admitted to the Commonwealth after the end of the "White Australia" policy, limitations were placed on freedom of movement to the Australian mainland until 1990 to allow for the economic development of the islands to reach a par with the rest of the country. Ethnic violence was also a concern between the various groups in the Solomon Islands, in particular the fair distribution of economic investment and use of resources on Guadalcanal, and civil unrest would continue until the 1998 Honiara Accords led by Chief Minister Sir Francis Billy Hilly. The Solomon Islands still lags behind the rest of Australia in terms of economic development, but the state is experiencing rapid growth in its manufacturing and resource extraction industries. Tourism is also a key part of the islands economy, alongside fishing and sustainable exports of copra, palm oil and timber.
The 2018 Solomon Islands state election was held on 10 February 2018 to elect, under the instant runoff voting system, the 50 members of the State Assembly of the Solomon Islands. Each member of the legislature is elected from a single-member district of roughly equal population.
The incumbent coalition government led by the centre-left Labour Party, under Chief Minister Gordon Darcy Lilo, supported by the left-wing regionalist United Islands, lost their majority in the State Assembly. The opposition centre-right Democrats, under new leader Matthew Wale, secured a plurality in the assembly but fell short of an overall majority. The centre-right Nationals, which advocate pro-Australian and pro-business policies, surged in support, largely amongst the white and growing urban population of the islands, securing third place in the assembly. The United Islands saw a slight increase in their share of the vote, but retained their three seats, while the centrist liberal and ecological Alliance lost one of their two seats. The Democrats secured a coalition agreement with the Nationals, with Wale appointed as seventh chief minister.
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Chief Ministers of the Solomon Islands
LeinadB93
Monthly Donor
And the follow up list of chief ministers:
Chief Ministers of the Solomon Islands (1978–)
Chief Ministers of the Solomon Islands (1978–)
11. 1978–1984 Peter Kenilorea (United Islands majority) (1st)
12. 1984–1990 Solomon Mamaloni (Labour majority) (1st)
11. 1990–1997 Sir Peter Kenilorea (United Islands majority) (2nd)
13. 1997–1999 Sir Francis Billy Hilly (United Islands majority)
12. 1999–2000 Solomon Mamaloni† (Labour majority) (2nd)
14. 2000–2005 Joses Tuhanuku (Labour majority)
15. 2005–2012 Manasseh Sogavare (Democratic minority, then Democratic–Alliance majority coalition)
16. 2012–2018 Gordon Darcy Lilo (Labour–United Islands majority coalition)
17. 2018–2019 Matthew Wale (Democratic–National majority coalition)
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The first thought that came to my mind is that poor old Don McLean will have had to work harder for the rest of his career...