Because he would know due to first hand experience that you can't really take both positions on and do both effectively
Habsburgs don't inherit Bohemia and Hungary - what happens next?
- Thread starter SavoyTruffle
- Start date
Again, Maria was offered with the Netherlands as dowry to Charles d’Orleans (who favored the alternative of marrying Anna with Milan as dowry) in OTL and she was taken in consideration as heiress of the Netherlands at the time of her wedding to Maximilian and after it so her receiving the Netherlands as dowry (so well before Mary unexpectedly became Queen of England) is not impossible. And Mary becoming Queen of England or Philip being free to marry her is far from being guaranteed
Well, I don't think he considered that an issue and seemed to think that Ferdinand's line would content themselves with the role of perpetual vicars or Imperial throne might alternate between Karl's and Ferdinand's line.
Charles d'Orleans had purpose of weakening France internally by creating prince of blood strong enough to oppose King (+ he'd be tied to Habsburgs by marriage) and granting Maximilian the Netherlands doesn't serve the same purpose, doesn't it? While it isn't impossible in the strict sense of the world, I wouldn't bet on Charles making Maria heir to Netherlands just to placate his brother (the odds like 75:25 in favor of Charles keeping Phil as heir). Yeah, it's far for guaranteed but POD is far enough
The Habsburg did not inherit Hungary - the Hungarian sucession law did not allow for that. If the main line of the ruling family died out the nobility was completely free to elect a ne w king (this also did not give any legal rights to the brothers or relatives to the new king - only to his male descendants).
The Habsburgs were elected as kings of Hungary because Hungary could no longer hope to oppose the ottoman advances on its own - especially after the defeat at Mohács. So the part of the hungarian nobility who still viewed resistance of the Ottomans as top priority elected the Habsburgs as kings of Hungary (and the part that had have enough of foreign rulers and the turks be damned elected John Zápolya).
OTL we have had a similar historical situation in 1440 - the King died but had a posthumus son. However a big part of the nobility elected another king as a child was not fit to lead the country in times of the Ottoman war. So im pretty sure that part of the nobility would be ready to elect the Habsburgs as kings of Hungary even with a late son of the king.
Hungary was also a very rich country in the middle ages - which was destroyed by being a battleground with the Ottomans for 200 years starting in about the time of the POD (actually the style of constant raiding the ottomans had at their border devastated southern Hungary even earlier). If the Habsbrgs dont become rulers of Hungary the carpathian basin would have most likely fully been conquered by the Ottomans and the battle ground that OTL was Hungary would have been Austria TTL. Hungary was an incredibly useful buffer for Austria during the Ottoman wars. Hungary also had his moments of saving the Habsburgs behind for example during the war of austrian succession. So again I will refrain from commenting on the level of stupidity of this comment.
Its true that these countries became very problematic during the age of nationalism and there has been few trubles earlier as well, but fundamentally Austria would have never been a great power without either of them and in the end of the day the acquiring of them was a huge boost for the House of Habsburg. Saying otherwise is plain wrong.
The Habsburgs were elected as kings of Hungary because Hungary could no longer hope to oppose the ottoman advances on its own - especially after the defeat at Mohács. So the part of the hungarian nobility who still viewed resistance of the Ottomans as top priority elected the Habsburgs as kings of Hungary (and the part that had have enough of foreign rulers and the turks be damned elected John Zápolya).
OTL we have had a similar historical situation in 1440 - the King died but had a posthumus son. However a big part of the nobility elected another king as a child was not fit to lead the country in times of the Ottoman war. So im pretty sure that part of the nobility would be ready to elect the Habsburgs as kings of Hungary even with a late son of the king.
Bohemia was the richest province of the Habsburgs historically - saying it would be not much of a loss is... I will refrain from commenting on the level of stupidity of it.
Hungary was also a very rich country in the middle ages - which was destroyed by being a battleground with the Ottomans for 200 years starting in about the time of the POD (actually the style of constant raiding the ottomans had at their border devastated southern Hungary even earlier). If the Habsbrgs dont become rulers of Hungary the carpathian basin would have most likely fully been conquered by the Ottomans and the battle ground that OTL was Hungary would have been Austria TTL. Hungary was an incredibly useful buffer for Austria during the Ottoman wars. Hungary also had his moments of saving the Habsburgs behind for example during the war of austrian succession. So again I will refrain from commenting on the level of stupidity of this comment.
Its true that these countries became very problematic during the age of nationalism and there has been few trubles earlier as well, but fundamentally Austria would have never been a great power without either of them and in the end of the day the acquiring of them was a huge boost for the House of Habsburg. Saying otherwise is plain wrong.
Well that was a bit more complicated, Hungarian succesion not always followed that tradition - female succesion was already allowed in person of Queen Mary I, Louis the Great's daughters and Charles II of Hungary (Charles III of Naples) staked his claim on being closest male relative of Louis I, although he was not his descendant. Still, the Congress of Vienna in 1515 made Habsburgs inherit Bohemia and Hungary (although that might be contrary to Hungarian law) and I think that's the main reason people talk about Habsburgs inheriting Bohemia. And wasn't law limiting election to main line of the ruling family introduced after Ferdinand's ascension? I somewhat remember year 1545 as the year in which Diet made such a law, but I'm not sure if I am right.
I don't think Habsburgs themselves will break the pact between them and Jagiellons, however Ferdinand would become regent for Louis's son + I don't really think Hungarians would risk waging war with Poland and Lithuania also while waging war with Turks, Sigismund won't take his grandnephew being deposed lightly and he already destroyed Teutonic Order, he isn't neutralized by the northern affairs anymore (add to that that Vassili III became more concerned with his maritial life than with foreign policy), IOTL everyone expected him to keep his word given at Vienna (and they did so correctly), but could they really expect the same in that situation? Zapolya's supporters gonna support him anyway and hope for alliance with Turks, but anti-Turkish part of the country will rally around Louis's son, so I think the division could be similar to OTL, though if Sigismund II Augustus still won't have a son, Bohemia and rump Hungary will enter a PU with Poland and Lithuania.
And Hungary (even that rump Hungary which Habsburgs got) still had one of the biggest gold, copper and silver supplies (though in modern day the Miner's Cities are located in Slovakia) in Europe, but yeah, Habsburgs totally didn't get anything out of it
That is some kind of Western European arrogance and it's not even funny to read.
You are right - thats why I said "legally". Might makes right and other exceptions have been made.
As for the kings being elected thats true - im not sure when it became law but I know for sure that ended in 1687. However as historically it made no difference (every Habsburg heir has been elected without the slightest problem and question though out of its existence) I never looked into it.
I also dont think so but if they wanted to they would find considerable support for it. But the situation in Hungary was near civil war - if there is any doubt about the child's legitimacy (like him being born posthumus) one of the parties is sure to question his legitimacy. Even if there isnt might be a civil war - about who will be the regent and raise the child.
Agree.And Hungary (even that rump Hungary which Habsburgs got) still had one of the biggest gold, copper and silver supplies (though in modern day the Miner's Cities are located in Slovakia) in Europe, but yeah, Habsburgs totally didn't get anything out of it
That is some kind of Western European arrogance and it's not even funny to read.
Louis II had Habsburg wife and was under strong influence of pro-Habsburg advisors, so if he keeps life and throne it would be good for Habsburgs as they'd have their flank secured by Hungarian buffer when they fight against French forces in Italy.
Yeah, but I'd say what Louis did is simply more than might makes right (that can be true for Charles of Durazzo, but he had sizable party of supporters even prior to his invasion so law didn't fully reflect what subjects thoughts about it, tho most of Durazzo's supporters were Croatians and Croatians might have different approach than Hungarians in general) but the attempt to change the law judging by lengths he and his wife went to have Mary crowned.
I don't think civil war would be avoided (except it might be war for regency, not crown) and the overall result could look very similar to OTL.
That is true but this would only last as long as he and his descendants lived
You are totally forgetting who Charles feel to be Burgundian more than everything else and was pretty much against leaving his most beloved possession to his Spanish son who had already demonstrated to not care much for them. Maria inheriting Netherlands would grant them to not become a province of Spain (who is something who Charles absolutely do not wanted to happen). And Philip remarrying to Maria of Viseu before Edward VI’s death is extremely likely in my opinion
Honestly, I think it's actually both a combination of the Habsburgs rolling nat 20s and the Jagiellon's rolling nat 1's, given that Louis never sired an heir, and the Jagiellon dynasty as a whole went extinct just over 40 years after Mohacs...sorry Jagiellon's.
So basically Louis II needs to produce son with his wife.
He was fertile IOTL, siring a bastard son in his teens (as he died at 20)
We don't know if Mary was fertile or not as she never had chance to have children (since she did not remarry after she was widowed at very young age when she would still be in childbearing years)
He was fertile IOTL, siring a bastard son in his teens (as he died at 20)
We don't know if Mary was fertile or not as she never had chance to have children (since she did not remarry after she was widowed at very young age when she would still be in childbearing years)
think other users have pointed she was barren or at least, certainly not as fertile as her sisters Isabella or Catherine were.
A fun POD would be Ferdinand (or Karl) being elsewhere, before they can father kids, and while Mary-Lajos not matching up with Ferdinand-Anna in fertility levels, at least managing a few surviving kids. Not like they were super-closely related like Karl-Isabel of Portugal or Catherine-Joao III were. So I'd say that, barring having kids being absolutely impossible, Mary should be able to manage a few that survive infancy.
Alternately, kill Mary off instead of Lajos and let him remarry to a bride we don't have a question mark over her fertility.
He does, but it doesn't make him less of a XVIth century man and he tried to shoehorn his son into even useless thrones (trying to get him elected as succesor of his uncle Ferdinand) and in any case, by author fiat one can make Charles's second son survive, which would be much more logical split than giving Maria Netherlands which Charles never seemed sure to do. If Philip remarried to Maria of Viseu he could already have more than one son with her and in that case, Charles might make Philip promise to split off Netherlands for his second son, if you don't want to go survival of Charles's second son scenario.
Ferdinand's line will have Austria and Wurtemberg + Imperial title.
Keep in mind who Mary and Lajos were not married for long time and who the first kid of Ferdinand and Anna (who were older than Mary and Lajos) was born a month before Lajos’ death… I think Mary would have children without many troubles if Lajos lived
Now THAT would be a fun POD.
If Louis II has a son that is older than Ferdinand and Karl's sons then it would cause great struggle for succession later down the line if that son has his own children....
If the Battle of Mohács still happens like IOTL, but Louis II survives the aftermath, then the most likely outcome of the conflict would be Hungary being required to honour the Sultan with "gifts" on an annual basis in exchange for peace. (Much like the Habsburgs did later on.)
The losses of Szabács, Nándorfehérvár(Belgrade), Pétervárad and Eszék would become permanent. A tremendous blow to Hungarian security. Compared to OTL however, the situation would be significantly better. IOTL, a bunch of forts and fortresses fell to the Ottomans between 1527 and 1530. Most of those would remain in Hungarian hand ITTL for the time being. Out of these, by far the most important retained fortress would be Jajce. As long as it stands, the interior of Slavonia is mostly secure.
For reference, here's a map about when did each fortification historically fall during this time period:
Time is working in Hungary's favour though. Even IOTL, Hungary was one of the big winners of the 16th century price revolution. By the end of the century, even the rump Royal Hungary on its own managed to produce about 0,8 million Florins revenue for the Court. For comparison, during the height of Matthias Corvinus' reign, the revenue of the entire country ranged between 0,6 and 0,9 million Florins annually.
ITTL, if the territorial integrity of Hungary is more or less preserved, the Court's annual revenue could easily reach or even surpass 3 million Florins. Factoring in the Bohemian Lands too could make us arrive at an overall yearly revenue of 4 million Florins. For comparison, the revenue of the Ottoman Sultan was about 10 million Ducats(=Florins) in 1592.
If Poland-Lithuania really gets thrown into the mix, this new Jagiellonian Empire could theoretically face off against the Ottoman Empire on more or less equal terms. (If I'm not mistaken, the PLC had a revenue the equivalent of 2,8 million Florins in 1573.)
The losses of Szabács, Nándorfehérvár(Belgrade), Pétervárad and Eszék would become permanent. A tremendous blow to Hungarian security. Compared to OTL however, the situation would be significantly better. IOTL, a bunch of forts and fortresses fell to the Ottomans between 1527 and 1530. Most of those would remain in Hungarian hand ITTL for the time being. Out of these, by far the most important retained fortress would be Jajce. As long as it stands, the interior of Slavonia is mostly secure.
For reference, here's a map about when did each fortification historically fall during this time period:
Time is working in Hungary's favour though. Even IOTL, Hungary was one of the big winners of the 16th century price revolution. By the end of the century, even the rump Royal Hungary on its own managed to produce about 0,8 million Florins revenue for the Court. For comparison, during the height of Matthias Corvinus' reign, the revenue of the entire country ranged between 0,6 and 0,9 million Florins annually.
ITTL, if the territorial integrity of Hungary is more or less preserved, the Court's annual revenue could easily reach or even surpass 3 million Florins. Factoring in the Bohemian Lands too could make us arrive at an overall yearly revenue of 4 million Florins. For comparison, the revenue of the Ottoman Sultan was about 10 million Ducats(=Florins) in 1592.
If Poland-Lithuania really gets thrown into the mix, this new Jagiellonian Empire could theoretically face off against the Ottoman Empire on more or less equal terms. (If I'm not mistaken, the PLC had a revenue the equivalent of 2,8 million Florins in 1573.)
I think Bohemia would amount to more, they had insane amounts of gold, tho I might be mistaken.
The Ore Mountains in the northwest, along the border with the Electorate of Saxony, were filled with tin and silver. The town of St. Joachimsthal (now Jachymov) was where mined silver was minted into coins called Joachimsthaler, which is the origin of the word dollar.
They also did have resources in modern-day Silesia and in 1526 margraves of Meissen didn't have electoral title yet.