Guy Fawkes' Gunpowder Plot succeeds
- Thread starter Chrispi
- Start date
Brilliantlight
Banned
chrispi said:
Most likely an Anti-Catholic backlash in England that would make the Anti-Protestent Spanish Inquisition look like a tea party!
The explosion the Gunpowder plot would have created would have completely obliterated a major part of Whitehall, and kicked off the Great Fire of London a few years earlier...
If the Spanish landed and tried to seize control of Britain, anti-Catholics might seek refuge/get support from the United Provinces of the Netherlands.
There was a child Princess who the plotters wanted to install on the throne, and bring up as a Catholic under Spanish support.
I think the following years would have occured as 'The Spanish Catholics in Charge, Protestant resistance movements become more and more of threat, Inquisition goes nuts, mass Witch burning etc.', eventually erupting into Civil War.
If the Spanish landed and tried to seize control of Britain, anti-Catholics might seek refuge/get support from the United Provinces of the Netherlands.
There was a child Princess who the plotters wanted to install on the throne, and bring up as a Catholic under Spanish support.
I think the following years would have occured as 'The Spanish Catholics in Charge, Protestant resistance movements become more and more of threat, Inquisition goes nuts, mass Witch burning etc.', eventually erupting into Civil War.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
If Spain invades, then the French, the Dutch, and the Scottish take England's side - they don't have a strategic choice.
The southern Netherlands will inevitably fall and be divided, but Franche-Comte might hold. The Scots will try to impose Presbyterianism, but I don't know if they'll succeed. Privateers from the 4 nations of the alliance grab some islands in the Caribbean to harass Spanish commerce. Cadiz, Lisbon, Porto, Vigo, and La Coruna suffer devastating raids. England can only hold if it accepts direct military assistance. Having contained the Spaniards but lost Ireland, the fight will be over strategic locations: the Channel and Flemish ports and islands, the Isle of Man, the Pyrrenes, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, the Bay of Biscay, and naval stations between Europe and (in its broader sense) the East Indies. It's a shame Turkey can't help much.
ADDED BY EDITING: Expect a raid on Panama.
The southern Netherlands will inevitably fall and be divided, but Franche-Comte might hold. The Scots will try to impose Presbyterianism, but I don't know if they'll succeed. Privateers from the 4 nations of the alliance grab some islands in the Caribbean to harass Spanish commerce. Cadiz, Lisbon, Porto, Vigo, and La Coruna suffer devastating raids. England can only hold if it accepts direct military assistance. Having contained the Spaniards but lost Ireland, the fight will be over strategic locations: the Channel and Flemish ports and islands, the Isle of Man, the Pyrrenes, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, the Bay of Biscay, and naval stations between Europe and (in its broader sense) the East Indies. It's a shame Turkey can't help much.
ADDED BY EDITING: Expect a raid on Panama.
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Thande
Donor
I remember reading recently that the amount of gunpowder under the Houses of Parliament was excessively large, capable of destroying most of central London with it - indeed, one might say, suspiciously large.
Some historians have advanced theories that the whole affair might have been a government put-up job to stir up anti-Catholic sentiment, although I don't think these claims are necessarily trated seriously.
Some historians have advanced theories that the whole affair might have been a government put-up job to stir up anti-Catholic sentiment, although I don't think these claims are necessarily trated seriously.
I do not think France would be in a situation to act, they would be coming out of a civil war. As for Flanders, the situation up there would not change very much. In OTL for most of the XVI and XVII century England, the United Provinces and France were in war against Spain (allied or not) and the situation there did not change until the second half of the TYW. In these years we have the Tercios in the peak of their power, look for the battles of Gemmingen, Glembours, Mook... The dutch and french armies would have been butchered. And the english would not have been able to help very much: they lose their queen, they are invaded by scots (presbiterians) and spaniards (catholics) and they are divided in catholics and anglicans. In fact the only danger I see for Spain are the ottomans.VoCSe said:
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Condottiero said:
Yeah, I guess you're right, you seem to know more about that age than me. Except I don't think Presbyterian Scotland would take Catholic Spain's side in crushing their ... well, buffer against the Pope, really.
Thande
Donor
VoCse said:
Never underestimate the power of realpolitick. This is, after all, the period in which (aside from the Armada incident) ultra-Catholic Spain was seen as a strategic ally for England against France, and France effectively took the side of Protestants in Germany against the prospect of a united Austro-Spanish Hapsburg empire.
Landshark said:
As someone above suggested, after the assassination and failed rebellion the UK would see an absolutly terrible pogrom. The remaining catholic gentry and aristocracy will be annihilated in rather unpleasant fashions, as will suspected sympathisers. Life will be very unpleasant for catholics, death or flight will be the only option for many. The realm itself will be very unstable, and could well fall due to internal dissent.
Gunpowder Plot..
I'm less convinced by a lot of these arguments. The fact is Catesby and his friends had no real "plan" for the future Governance of England once the Plot had succeeded. Second, it's often forgotten that only 5% or so of England's population was Catholic. It seems inplausible that a Catholic Government could have been put in place.
Assuming the explosion happens and James I, along with hundreds of others, including Francis Bacon, are killed. The theory that young Prince Charles would be taken to Scotland seems unlikely - instead, the surviving aristocracy, the sons of those lost at Whitehall, would have established a Regency to rule in the name of Charles I.
There would of course be vicious reprisals against surviving Catholics and, whatever his personal convictions, it seems unlikely that Charles would have followed a Catholic path given he would have had it drummed into him by his tutors that Catholics had murdered his father and brother.
We may well see a quite different Charles Stuart, assuming he survives childhood. He may well be the epitome of a vengeful Protestant monarch, urging a militant England to oppose Catholicism at every turn. The other major change is that he would have been bound in common grief with Parliament - no Civil War, indeed a more supine Parliament including a hugely supportive Huntingdon MP, Oliver Cromwell.
It is England, in alliance with Holland, that forms the main bulwark to French expansionism in the 17th Century. Catholicism everywhere is suppressed including Ireland, which thus alters history significantly for that island. In a land where religious freedom for all Protestants is enshrined, there is no need for pilgrims to travel to America on the Mayflower.
I'm less convinced by a lot of these arguments. The fact is Catesby and his friends had no real "plan" for the future Governance of England once the Plot had succeeded. Second, it's often forgotten that only 5% or so of England's population was Catholic. It seems inplausible that a Catholic Government could have been put in place.
Assuming the explosion happens and James I, along with hundreds of others, including Francis Bacon, are killed. The theory that young Prince Charles would be taken to Scotland seems unlikely - instead, the surviving aristocracy, the sons of those lost at Whitehall, would have established a Regency to rule in the name of Charles I.
There would of course be vicious reprisals against surviving Catholics and, whatever his personal convictions, it seems unlikely that Charles would have followed a Catholic path given he would have had it drummed into him by his tutors that Catholics had murdered his father and brother.
We may well see a quite different Charles Stuart, assuming he survives childhood. He may well be the epitome of a vengeful Protestant monarch, urging a militant England to oppose Catholicism at every turn. The other major change is that he would have been bound in common grief with Parliament - no Civil War, indeed a more supine Parliament including a hugely supportive Huntingdon MP, Oliver Cromwell.
It is England, in alliance with Holland, that forms the main bulwark to French expansionism in the 17th Century. Catholicism everywhere is suppressed including Ireland, which thus alters history significantly for that island. In a land where religious freedom for all Protestants is enshrined, there is no need for pilgrims to travel to America on the Mayflower.