Guantanamo War 1977

Coriolanus said:
I think we're underestimating Carter here. He surely would've went to war over this. Besides, he boycotted the '80 games due to the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan...he'd have the "cajones" to fight.

I think you may be overestimating him! Not letting atheletes go to the Olympics is a far cry from bombing the snot out of an island. Consider these factors too:

1. Pres Carter is on the record for disapproving of the Vietnam War.
2. He also gave blanket amnesty to draft evaders.
3. He planned on withdrawing the 8th Army from Korea.
4. During the Iran Hostage Crisis he dithered for months.
5. Although he did eventually send a failed rescue mission to Iran, his Sec State resigned in protest over conducting the op in the first place (which goes to show you what kind of staff he had).

Each one can individually be rationalized. However, it shows a strong pattern of reluctance to use military force. Dont get me wrong. I dont think Pres Carter would do nothing. Im certain he would use naval/air power to defend the marines and sailors. But a comprehensive bombing campaign? I really have my doubts.....
 
Hmmm.....I didn't know that Carter was ready to pull troops out of Korea. I think he'd go in, but as for the war strategy in fighting Cuba....I'm not sure what it would be. But American public opinion, even after Vietnam, would want Castro's head on a pike.
 
If Castro decided to take Gitmo in '77, it would be over in a heartbeat. Cuba 1, US 0.

There would only be one option Carter could take to combat the Cuban Army -- invasion -- and he wouldn't have the spine to do it. While Cuba and the USSR were still not the closest of allies, it's a virtual certainty that Brezhnev and the Politburo wouldn't let the USMC set foot on Cuban soil, and Carter couldn't risk that confrontation. Moreover, considering all the mobilization necessary to such an attack (I'm sure there's one in the Joint Chiefs' playbook, even today) there's no way in hell we could get our men on the beach within a week, let alone within the HOURS necessary to provide reinforcement at Gitmo. The only immediate assistance which could be provided would be from AFBs in Texas and Florida, or from any USN vessels which might be in port at Guantanamo, or in the Caribbean.

Carter's only reasonable action would be to accept defeat, parlay with Castro for the safe return of any prisoners, and hope to God there's nothing sitting around Gitmo that shouldn't fall into the hands of the Cuban army.

As it is, we should be grateful that Cuba's armed forces weren't (and aren't) any better than they are, or this would have already happened. Castro -- at least the Castro of the mid-70s -- was no dummy; he could have seen that he had the US in a Mexican stand-off (Cuban stand-off?), where the US would be powerless to intervene due to Soviet retaliation.
 
I'm not so sure the Soviets would be all that effective (barring nuclear escalation). After all, they'd be at the end of a very long supply chain, while the US would right next door to the action. If the USSR found out about Castro's plans ahead of time, I think they'd do their damndest to talk him out of it, not wanting such a hot confrontation at this time. If Castro went ahead anyway, the Russians might loudly declare their support, but the forces they could put in theater wouldn't come close to matching what the US could send in, land, air, or sea. So, what it would come down to is if the Soviets would risk nuclear war for Cuba, since nuclear threats is about the only card they'd have to play.
Hmm... for the purposes of this discussion, let us suppose that Castro does overrun Gitmo and Carter describes to attack back. Just what would be the best game plan for the US? I suppose it would be a naval blockade followed by air strikes on the major Cuban military and industry centers.... do you suppose Carter would eventually try to retake Gitmo or settle for massive punitive strikes? The Russians would likely condemn all this, but with an unprovoked first strike on the part of the Cubans followed by a slaughter of US marines in Gitmo, how much sympathy are they going to get from the rest of the world?
 
Dave Howery said:
Hmm... for the purposes of this discussion, let us suppose that Castro does overrun Gitmo and Carter describes to attack back. Just what would be the best game plan for the US? I suppose it would be a naval blockade followed by air strikes on the major Cuban military and industry centers.... do you suppose Carter would eventually try to retake Gitmo or settle for massive punitive strikes? The Russians would likely condemn all this, but with an unprovoked first strike on the part of the Cubans followed by a slaughter of US marines in Gitmo, how much sympathy are they going to get from the rest of the world?

You bring up an interesting point with the Soviets. It would be hard for them to bring in reinforcements. However, there was a Soviet Brigade size force in Cuba at the time! If Pres Carter acted forcefully (a big if to me) Id imagine it wouldnt go beyond restoring the status quo.

As to world sympathy for slaughtering US servicemen....wouldnt count on it. Go to some of the off topic discussions and get a feel of world opinion as to atrocities conducted in Iraq. Wont bring up details but its very revealing.
 
If the US invaded Cuba, the Soviets could try something in Europe in revenge (like seizing West Berlin). The possibility of a Soviet retaliatory move in Europe could push the Europeans to loudly oppose the US on the matter.
 
Carter was NOT weak, just misguided. He proved capable of bold miltary action when required, as in the case of the Iran rescue mission, which was a failure through no fault of his own.

Cuba would have had virtually no chance of taking Guatanamo. First of all, how on earth would they stage a surprise attack of 25,000 troops? Its not like we wouldn't notice. Second, airpower. Third, it IS a naval base, with big metal things with guns on them sitting around.

I can't imagine Cuban soldiers mustering much enthusiasm to be mowed down for no apparent reason, either.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Carter was NOT weak, just misguided. He proved capable of bold miltary action when required, as in the case of the Iran rescue mission, which was a failure through no fault of his own.

Cuba would have had virtually no chance of taking Guatanamo. First of all, how on earth would they stage a surprise attack of 25,000 troops? Its not like we wouldn't notice. Second, airpower. Third, it IS a naval base, with big metal things with guns on them sitting around.

I can't imagine Cuban soldiers mustering much enthusiasm to be mowed down for no apparent reason, either.

Oh God, there goes the neighborhood!

Carter was most definitely weak. Read my list above. He is a good and decent man. I have actually met him. I got the feeling I could leave my car at his house and if I came back one year later to get it it would be untouched other than it would have a full tank of gas and a wax job. But he was a wuss when it came to decisive action.

Wouldnt have a chance? Estimates Ive seen and heard gave Gitmo about a 12 hour existence in a Cuban assualt in the mid 70s. And dont count on the Naval power. Its a naval base, but its not a big one. Its not like we ever kept a carrier task force or anything similar there.
 
Did nobody read my other post?

Castro had the treaty agreement, by the USA, to "Never invade Cuba" which he can rely on forever---just so long as HE does nothing to break the treaty first! If Castro were dumb enough to attack Guantanomo NB, he would be doing so in violation of the treaty. The Russians will either have to be goading him into doing it, in which case they are also prepared to risk a general European War, and /or General Thermonuclear war! Either of those options suggests that the Russians have also become CRAZY (which they were not), OR the Russians are taken by surprise at Castro themselves. If so, they may gracefully decline to risk anything, and can decaler him to be on his own!

If Castro attacks Guantanamo NB, his "treaty protection" from invasion just got cancelled. If it is a unilateral attack by CASTRO, I'd have to say that he's toast. If it is part of a worldwide move to war, then whether or not the US retaliates and arrests Castro is irrelavant---a general war will shortly erupt in Europe or the Mideast or Asia or all of these places whether we want it to or not!

In the case of WWIII breaking out, under Carter's "insp[ired leadership", I would have to say that Neville Chaimberlain would no longer hold the title of "World's most ineffective appeaser" and that Carter would have to really work at making sure his record remains better than that of the French, insofar as losing wars is concerned!
 
If this happens, Carter would be forced to respond because it would be a direct attack on the US military. Whether or not he botches the counterattack is up for debate. The military's morale may possibly increase. Guantanamo will become synonymous with remembering Wake Island and the Alamo. I theorize that the morale, even in the post-Vietnam military, will be lifted.

Being as how Castro violated the treaty, the Soviets are no longer treaty bound to support them. Oh, the USSR may issue support diplomatically, but I doubt if they would see Cuba as a worthwhile fight. The Soviet military will, however, be put on high alert, making the cold war turn very hot.

The US may not have the ability to attack right away, seeing as how the Soviets have troops in Cuba. Carter may just tell the Soviets that if they are not going to support Castro military, then get out. If the Soviets stay in country, Carter won't do anything. The US, and the world in general, can't afford a confrontation with the Soviet Union.

However, if the Soviets do leave Cuba, the US will launch an attack. It's all a matter of who can bluff best.
 
Third, it IS a naval base, with big metal things with guns on them sitting around.

Not only does it have those Big Metal Thingies, But the largest Mine feild of any US Base in the World.

It is also a Hollow Mountain, Some of the Weapony we have Under Ground there is the modern equivent of the Marigot Line. Only done Right.
 
Mike Collins said:
Oh God, there goes the neighborhood!

Carter was most definitely weak. Read my list above. He is a good and decent man. I have actually met him. I got the feeling I could leave my car at his house and if I came back one year later to get it it would be untouched other than it would have a full tank of gas and a wax job. But he was a wuss when it came to decisive action.

Wouldnt have a chance? Estimates Ive seen and heard gave Gitmo about a 12 hour existence in a Cuban assualt in the mid 70s. And dont count on the Naval power. Its a naval base, but its not a big one. Its not like we ever kept a carrier task force or anything similar there.

You have no evidence to support that. He tried negotiation with Iran because we had no previous experience with such a hostage crisis and Iran had just weeks before been one of our closest friends. It would have been reckless to use force without understanding the situation. Once he did, he did use force.

In the case of Cuba invading Guantanamo, the situation is more or less cut and dried. Our title to G is unimpeachable, and a invasion would be a priceless opportunity to rid ourselves of a recurrent problem. It would also be politically impossible for him to do nothing.

I also do not accept that the Cuban army could overrun the base that quickly.

Being against the Vietnam war is not a sign of weakness, that is silly. If he had been against entering WWII you would have a point. And the pardons were a much needed gesture to put that nightmare behind us.
 
Hmmm, a scenario

Ok, let's play this out.

May 13, 1977, 1300 hrs EDT: The Cuban military begins to mass 25,000 troops to take Gitmo. Their poor organization and training, although far ahead of many other Third World militaries, still means it will take at least two days for them to get ready.

May 13, 1977, 1500 hrs, EDT: US satellite reconaissance picks up activity near Gitmo.

May 14, 1977, 0600 hrs EDT: High altitude reconaissance planes are dispatched to confirm sattelite data.

May 14, 1977, 0800 hrs EDT: High altitude photos are taken that confirm Cuban preparations for an assault on Gitmo.

May 14, 1977, 0830 EDT: The photos arrive on the desk of the President.

May 14, 1977, 1030 hrs EDT: The cabinet meet to discuss the crisis in Cuba. There are various opinions on what to do. Carter is reluctant to use force, and does not believe the United States able to invade Cuba, but will not give up Guantanimo without a fight, or retaliation. He decides to ready American forces to defend the base, to put such forces as are easily available there, to ready the U.S. Air Force for bombing of positions near Guantanimo, and to let Castro know his surprise is blown.

May 14, 1977, 1235 EDT: The President calls the Canadian Prime Minister, and asks Canadian diplomats in Cuba to deliver an ultimatum to Castro.

May 14, 1977, 1310 EDT: United States fighters and bombers are scrambled, in preparaton to defend Gitmo.

May 14, 1977, 1312 EDT: Canadian diplomats in Cuba get a call from the Prime Minister.

May 14, 1977, 1314 EDT: Guantanimo itself goes on alert, and prepares for an attack.

May 14, 1977, 1330 EDT: The 82nd DRB begins to get ready for emergency deployment to Gitmo. They will not be ready to board the planes for another 48 hours.

May 14, 1977, 1335 EDT: President Carter calls Premier Brezhnev on the hotline, and informs him of the plan. Brezhnev blusters.

May 14, 1977, 1355 EDT: Brezhnev calls up Castro, nearly foaming at the mouth. Castro is given to understand he is on his own.

May 14, 1977, 1420 EDT: In most TLs, the crisis ends here, with Castro standing down. We'll assume he has an incredible, and uncharacteristic, moment of stupidity, and stays his course.

May 14, 1977, 1601 EDT: Castro finally lets the Canadian diplomats in to see him. They deliver their message. We'll assume that Castro's moment of stupidity continues, and he doesn't back down.

May 14, 1977, 1636 EDT: Cuban troops are now in place to attack Guantanimo. The time of attack is decided on: midnight.

May 15, 1977, 0100 EDT: Cuban troops begin their attack on Gitmo, one hour late.

May 15, 1977, 0109 EDT: Shells start landing inside the Guantanimo base.

May 15, 1977, 0130 EDT: The U.S. perimeter is holding.

May 15, 1977, 0200 EDT: The U.S. Air Force begins heavy aerial attack of the Cuban forces around Gitmo, including heavy bombing with B-52s. This greatly disorganizes the Cuban force, and will buy Gitmo 9 more hours. The shells stop falling.

May 15, 1977 1100 EDT: The Cuban attacks resume, sans shelling, due to the destruction of Cuban artillery.

May 15, 1977, 2430 EDT: Cuban forces break the U.S. perimeter.

May 16, 1977, 0143 EDT: The U.S. forces, out of ammunition and with their tactical position crumbling, surrender. Guantanimo is Cuban.

May 16, 1977, 0200 EDT: U.S. air strikes shift to retaliation. Dams, bridges, factories, power plants, are all targeted, as are military bases and command and control centers. The 82nd DRB is ordered to stand down. The upcoming campaign will rely on air power.

May 16, 1977, 0600 EDT: President Carter addresses the nation. He pledges that retaliatory airstrikes will continue until Cuba gives Gitmo back to the United States, and repatriates all American prisoners.

May 16, 1977, 1003 EDT: Power and communications are out across Cuba. Castro is unable to contact his military forces. His paranoia grows. He begins to regret invading Gitmo.

May 17, 1977, 1135 EDT: With little Cuban infrastructure left to attack, the U.S. air campaign shifts to carpet bombing of Cuban cities. Remember, 1977 is only two years after the end of Vietnam. Carpet bombing of civilians was viewed very differently then than now.

May 19, 1977, 0948 EDT: His country in ruins, his military destroyed, his prestige vanishing among his people, Fidel Castro agrees to the U.S. terms.

May 21, 1977, 1200 EDT: Cuban troops hand Guantanimo over to the 82nd DRB.

Epilog, 1980: Having the example of Cuba before them, Iranian student militants decide not to sieze the American embassy. Despite the economic situation, and continued troubles abroad, Jimmy Carter is re-elected President of the United States, in November.
 
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Having spend time in Gitmo during the '70s, I'm telling you the Ammo, both the Personel, and Artillery, Would NOT run out that fast. They may be able to take the Airfeilds And Dock, But.

If Corigierdor [Phillipines] Had the Supplies of Gitmo, the Japs would have still been beseiging it when the US troops landed in '45.
 
DuQuense said:
Having spend time in Gitmo during the '70s, I'm telling you the Ammo, both the Personel, and Artillery, Would NOT run out that fast. They may be able to take the Airfeilds And Dock, But. If Corigierdor [Phillipines] Had the Supplies of Gitmo, the Japs would have still been beseiging it when the US troops landed in '45.

Well, if you were there, you would know. In that case, the 82nd may be able to relieve the garrison. In that case, Castro prolly cuts his losses, and it all ends right there.

Any way you slice it, though, Castro ends up with a black eye, and Carter gets a boost. Especially because Brezhnev would have about absolute zero sympathy with a client who went and did something on their own.
 
As an added consequence to a Cuban military defeat at Guantanamo,guerrilla movements throughout Latin America take a major hit in terms of logistical and financial support.The Angolan government loses out too--half their ammunition in the war with UNITA came from Havana.
 
Aedh> nice TL.. I could roughly see it happening that way. Do you suppose it would really put the breaks on the Iran hostage taking though? Even though the US has just shown it has considerable military power, that isn't all that much of an advantage when it comes to a hostage crisis. One wonders just how Carter's chances of reelection would be if he had the success in Cuba on one side and the hostage crisis and Afghanistan on the other side... the GOP could still claim that he is incompetent in foreign affairs, but they couldn't really saddle him with the 'wimp' title...
 
Aedh,

Very intereresting. Do you think that Castro will be able to hang onto power in the aftermath of this debacle?

The Angolan situation will also be interesting. What sort of government would a victorious UNITA set up?
 
You know who your friends are...

Cuba doesn't borrow tens of billions of dollars from us and not pay it back.
Cuba doesn't smuggle tons of cocaine into America every week.
Cuba doesn't compete with America for wheat and soybean markets.
Cuba doesn't compete with America for imports of oil.
Cuba doesn't ask America for billions of dollars in military and economic aid.
And finally and most importantly, Cuba doesn't export millions of uneducated emigrants to America. They put them through college first, for free. Then they send them to America.
Cuba isn't our best friend in Latin America. Cuba is our only friend in Latin America.
If they want Guantanamo back, they can have Guantanamo back! Just as long as they promise not to be our friends like everybody else in Latin America!
 
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