Greg's latest video examines the P-39 in American and Soviet use.


It would appear the P-39 was very useful in the low to medium altitude range. In both air to air combat and ground attack roles.

I think the Americans and possibly the British might also have found more use for the P-39 in the ground attack role if a specialized version with an increased range had been built for that purpose. Here is an old what if posting of mine describing a P-39 dive bomber version. Edited to include some authorial rethink.

"The P-39 was a reasonable good fighter providing they were operated below about 15,000 feet and taking into account its short range it still achieved success flown by Russian/Soviet pilots against the Luftwaffe in the low to medium altitudes where their air war was largely fought.

When not being used as a stop gap interceptor it provided good service to the Americans in the New Guinea and Solomons campaigns though P-39 operations were again restricted by its short range. They were also used there as C-47 escorts in New Guinea. A suitable role for the P-39 as the C-47s were usually flown below 10,000 feet there after crossing the Owen Stanley Mountains.

The P-39s effectiveness as a fighter-bomber could have been increased with relatively minor modifications mainly to the wing. Removing the 4 .30 machine guns from the wings and using the space for fuel tankage would have increased the range maybe 30 to 40%. In the dive bomber role the .30 guns are not useful.

The wing structure would need to be beefed up to take the loading the A-36 Apache style air brakes would impose during the vertical dive and to withstand the high-g pull outs. Bomb shackles could have been installed just outside the propeller arc for bombs and plumbed for drop tanks as well. Having more locations for drop tanks and even slightly increased wing tankage will increase the range. Some of this is similar to the modifications done to the P-51A wing to produce the A-36 Apache except for the removal of all the wing guns.

What the P-39 dive bomber would have had that the A-36 didn't was a 37 mm cannon in the nose as well a 2 .50 Browning HMGs. The 37 mm cannon would have been a powerful defensive fire suppressant particularly during the vertical dive attack. Especially to exposed AA gun crews.

Other advantages the P-39 would have is the engine being better protected in its' mid plane location and the coolant radiator and oil coolers buried with in the fuselage under the engine. This is especially so if the extra armour is installed around the radiator and oil coolers as Bell did with some Photo-recon versions of OTL P-39s. The engine has to be protected as much as practicable as liquid cooled engines and the coolant radiator and lines are more vulnerable then radial air cooled engines.

Using the single stage supercharged Allison engine same as the P-39 is not a problem for low to medium altitude operations. There is little manufacturing changes needed to produce the P-39 dive bomber as compared to the P-39 fighter. Only the modifications to the wing structure and the addition of the dive brakes and the wing bomb/drop tank shackles and fuel line plumbing. One wonders if the USAAF would've given the plane an "A" for attack designator.

This P-39 dive bomber variant would have been a little more robust then the OTL A-36 Apache with a more powerful AA suppressor punch with the 37mm cannon. Much cheaper to build then the 2 man Vultee Vengeance dive bomber and much more capable of protecting itself. I think the Australians in New Guinea would have greatly appreciated such a plane. And maybe the British in Burma as well. It would not need to have been used only in the dive bomb role but all fighter bomber type operations would have been possible as well. And it would still be able to hold it's own against enemy fighters at the low to medium altitude range after dropping its external loads."

Taken and edited from https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/p-39-airacobra-as-a-dive-bomber.392638/ Please don't reply to the old thread to avoid necroing.
 

marathag

Banned

It would appear the P-39 was very useful in the low to medium altitude range. In both air to air combat and ground attack roles.

I think the Americans and possibly the British might also have found more use for the P-39 in the ground attack role if a specialized version with an increased range had been built for that purpose. Here is an old what if posting of mine describing a P-39 dive bomber version. Edited to include some authorial rethink.

"The P-39 was a reasonable good fighter providing they were operated below about 15,000 feet and taking into account its short range it still achieved success flown by Russian/Soviet pilots against the Luftwaffe in the low to medium altitudes where their air war was largely fought.

When not being used as a stop gap interceptor it provided good service to the Americans in the New Guinea and Solomons campaigns though P-39 operations were again restricted by its short range. They were also used there as C-47 escorts in New Guinea. A suitable role for the P-39 as the C-47s were usually flown below 10,000 feet there after crossing the Owen Stanley Mountains.

The P-39s effectiveness as a fighter-bomber could have been increased with relatively minor modifications mainly to the wing. Removing the 4 .30 machine guns from the wings and using the space for fuel tankage would have increased the range maybe 30 to 40%. In the dive bomber role the .30 guns are not useful.

The wing structure would need to be beefed up to take the loading the A-36 Apache style air brakes would impose during the vertical dive and to withstand the high-g pull outs. Bomb shackles could have been installed just outside the propeller arc for bombs and plumbed for drop tanks as well. Having more locations for drop tanks and even slightly increased wing tankage will increase the range. Some of this is similar to the modifications done to the P-51A wing to produce the A-36 Apache except for the removal of all the wing guns.

What the P-39 dive bomber would have had that the A-36 didn't was a 37 mm cannon in the nose as well a 2 .50 Browning HMGs. The 37 mm cannon would have been a powerful defensive fire suppressant particularly during the vertical dive attack. Especially to exposed AA gun crews.

Other advantages the P-39 would have is the engine being better protected in its' mid plane location and the coolant radiator and oil coolers buried with in the fuselage under the engine. This is especially so if the extra armour is installed around the radiator and oil coolers as Bell did with some Photo-recon versions of OTL P-39s. The engine has to be protected as much as practicable as liquid cooled engines and the coolant radiator and lines are more vulnerable then radial air cooled engines.

Using the single stage supercharged Allison engine same as the P-39 is not a problem for low to medium altitude operations. There is little manufacturing changes needed to produce the P-39 dive bomber as compared to the P-39 fighter. Only the modifications to the wing structure and the addition of the dive brakes and the wing bomb/drop tank shackles and fuel line plumbing. One wonders if the USAAF would've given the plane an "A" for attack designator.

This P-39 dive bomber variant would have been a little more robust then the OTL A-36 Apache with a more powerful AA suppressor punch with the 37mm cannon. Much cheaper to build then the 2 man Vultee Vengeance dive bomber and much more capable of protecting itself. I think the Australians in New Guinea would have greatly appreciated such a plane. And maybe the British in Burma as well. It would not need to have been used only in the dive bomb role but all fighter bomber type operations would have been possible as well. And it would still be able to hold it's own against enemy fighters at the low to medium altitude range after dropping its external loads."

Taken and edited from https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/p-39-airacobra-as-a-dive-bomber.392638/ Please don't reply to the old thread to avoid necroing.
For Ground Attack, would be better served with a wing with more chord, that gives more area, needed to offset the higher weights from carrying more bombs and armor. P-63 had a slightly larger wing for similar increases in weight.
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
It was noted how short the Range was. I have always like the P-63. not so much for the higher speeds, but for 3 hard points. centerline drop tank more range and 2 wing hard points for up to 500lb each. How hard to get a P-39 with these 3 hardpoints?
 

marathag

Banned
It was noted how short the Range was. I have always like the P-63. not so much for the higher speeds, but for 3 hard points. centerline drop tank more range and 2 wing hard points for up to 500lb each. How hard to get a P-39 with these 3 hardpoints?
P-39D had 75 Imperial gallons of fuel, later 100 Imp. gallons and 227 pounds of armor

Early Spitfires had 85 Imp. gallons and 41 pounds of armor behind the Pilot after May, 1940. Late War Spitfire wad leading edge wing tanks and enlarged fuselage tanks for 122 gallons, and additional armor behind, under and in front of the pilot, for 73 pounds
 
For Ground Attack, would be better served with a wing with more chord, that gives more area, needed to offset the higher weights from carrying more bombs and armor. P-63 had a slightly larger wing for similar increases in weight.
I'd guess that my A/P-39 would be limited to about 1000 lbs of bombs and/or external fuel load. How exactly would that be distributed? If the new wing hardpoints are built to take a 500 lbs load that would allow some flexibility within that 1000 lbs limit. Depending on the mission requirements would a drop tank be needed or only a bombload. One possible loadout, 2 500 lbs bombs one on each wing shackle. Or if longer range is required then 2 250 lbs bomb one on each of the wing shackles and a 75 gallon (500 lbs) drop tank on the centre shackle. Anything heavier then that they'd better have a nice long runway, a well tuned engine and a pilot who skipped breakfast.
 

marathag

Banned
I'd guess that my A/P-39 would be limited to about 1000 lbs of bombs and/or external fuel load. How exactly would that be distributed? If the new wing hardpoints are built to take a 500 lbs load that would allow some flexibility within that 1000 lbs limit. Depending on the mission requirements would a drop tank be needed or only a bombload. One possible loadout, 2 500 lbs bombs one on each wing shackle. Or if longer range is required then 2 250 lbs bomb one on each of the wing shackles and a 75 gallon (500 lbs) drop tank on the centre shackle. Anything heavier then that they'd better have a nice long runway, a well tuned engine and a pilot who skipped breakfast.
A larger wing helps with those heavy take-off weights.
A regular P-39 has around 2000 pounds of payload, that's Pilot, Oxygen,Engine Oil, Coolant, guns, ammo for guns, and fuel, around 6.5 pound for a US Gallon.
What is left over, can be bombs.

Bigger wing gives more lift, so more load carrying capacity(payload) at the expense of more drag and a bit more structure weight.
 
A larger wing helps with those heavy take-off weights.
A regular P-39 has around 2000 pounds of payload, that's Pilot, Oxygen,Engine Oil, Coolant, guns, ammo for guns, and fuel, around 6.5 pound for a US Gallon.
What is left over, can be bombs.

Bigger wing gives more lift, so more load carrying capacity(payload) at the expense of more drag and a bit more structure weight.
The P-39 is a small plane alright. If going by the difference between gross weight and maximum take-off weight this indicates a maximum loadout weight for bombs and/or drop tanks of about 800 pounds. So 1000 pounds would be pushing it. Well, it wouldn't be the first time a WW2 airplane was heavily overloaded. They did stuff like that frequently with fighters, bombers and transports. Very hazardous as it eliminated safety margins on take-off and climb out until an appreciable amount of fuel is burned off. Everything has to work properly or big trouble.
 
1661277340459.png
Photo from the Aviation History Online museum.
Here is a P-63 Kingcobra with a bubble canopy. Only one was built, the P-63D. Bell didn't put that modification into production. I don't know why they didn't.

One would think that replacing the heavy cockpit roof framing and bracing arch would've also been a good move for the P-39 as well. Greatly improving the pilots' visibility and reducing the overall weight of the plane.

The Soviets being the main user of the P-39 would have seen the value of giving the P-39 a bubble canopy. Perhaps they weren't aware that modification was possible. Or maybe the Russians didn't want to risk any interruption to the production line at Bells' P-39 plant in Buffalo in 1942/1943.
 
A larger wing helps with those heavy take-off weights.
A regular P-39 has around 2000 pounds of payload, that's Pilot, Oxygen,Engine Oil, Coolant, guns, ammo for guns, and fuel, around 6.5 pound for a US Gallon.
What is left over, can be bombs.

Bigger wing gives more lift, so more load carrying capacity(payload) at the expense of more drag and a bit more structure weight.
I think there were a few modest improvements that ought to have been carried out on the OTL P-39. Some strengthening of the rear fuselage was needed. Which would unfortunately have made the P-39 a bit more tail heavy then it already was. Especially when the ammunition was expended. Moving some equipment forward into the nose could have fixed that problem. But what could be fitted in such a small location? Maybe the battery it being small but dense and heavy. And considering one of the early armament packages for the P-39 was the 37mm cannon, 2 .50 M2s and 2 .30 caliber LMGs all in the nose how about putting a third .50 HMG in the nose. Would that be possible even with a reduced sized .50 magazine? Increase the fire power and put more constant weight in the nose.

The idea being to remove the wing guns whether they're the 4 .30s or the later 2 .50s to increase the size of the wing fuel tanks. And also attempt to reduce the overall weight by giving the P-39 a bubble canopy as mentioned in my previous posting. The Soviets would usually remove the pod mounted .50s from the wings of the later model P-39Qs to reduce drag. With a third .50 in the nose and enlarged wing tanks they get an increase in firepower without the drag of the pod mounted .50s and an increase in range on internal fuel and a better C of G location.

Also this strengthened P-39 fuselage would be better prepared for use as a dive bomber for Allied use when fitted with a pair of strengthened wings with dive brakes and 2 hardpoints outside the propeller arc. I wonder how much the weight could've been reduced by building the P-39 with a bubble canopy.
 
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Errolwi

Monthly Donor
Having stood next to a P-39 (and seen it fly), they are small! Totally makes sense that they have range issues. A pilot also noted that with a lack of weight in the nose (and tail of course) there is little inertia in the yaw axis, presumably making it fairly twitchy. Short length also a reason for the large fin and rudder, not much of a lever to work with.
Are you wanting dive breaks in the second half of the war, doesn't seem very survivable?
 
Having stood next to a P-39 (and seen it fly), they are small! Totally makes sense that they have range issues. A pilot also noted that with a lack of weight in the nose (and tail of course) there is little inertia in the yaw axis, presumably making it fairly twitchy. Short length also a reason for the large fin and rudder, not much of a lever to work with.
Are you wanting dive breaks in the second half of the war, doesn't seem very survivable?
My proposed P-39 dive bomber would've been useful in the less dangerous Japanese army flak environment of the Far-East, New Guinea and the Pacific through out the war. And it would have been acceptable in Italy 1943 as it was for the OTL A-36 Apache. Dive bombing in Northern Europe in 1944 and 1945 against the flak heavy Germans would have been prohibitively costly.

Here's the USAAF using dive bombers in the Pacific.
1661290673702.png
From Wikipedia. USAAF A-24s ( SBD Dauntless) taxing out in December, 1943.

Thanks for those excellent pictures.
 
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My proposed P-39 dive bomber would've been useful in the less dangerous Japanese army flak environment of the Far-East, New Guinea and the Pacific through out the war. And it would have been acceptable in Italy 1943 as it was for the OTL A-36 Apache. Dive bombing in Northern Europe in 1944 and 1945 against the flak heavy Germans would have been prohibitively costly.

Here's the USAAF using dive bombers in the Pacific.
View attachment 768913 From Wikipedia. USAAF A-24s ( SBD Dauntless) taxing out in December, 1943.

Thanks for those excellent pictures.
The P-39 dive bomber could still be used in Europe as a fighter-bomber. The P-47 and P-51 have a larger payload and greater performance and will still replace the P-39 as they replaced the P-40. Still, that heavy gun armament may be welcomed by some on the ground.

Though, how did the other fighter-bombers carry out attacks against the heavy AA in Europe? A P-39 dive bomber could use the same techniques.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
The RNZAF ditched their SBDs after a couple of months frontline service in March-May 44 as their Corsairs were nearly as useful for bombing and didn't need escorting. There is a fairly narrow window for making the changes.

Photos used by Chris in his discussion with Justin Pyke, which covers the Pacific side of things.

 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
The P-39 dive bomber could still be used in Europe as a fighter-bomber. The P-47 and P-51 have a larger payload and greater performance and will still replace the P-39 as they replaced the P-40. Still, that heavy gun armament may be welcomed by some on the ground.

Though, how did the other fighter-bombers carry out attacks against the heavy AA in Europe? A P-39 dive bomber could use the same techniques.
Without dive brakes, fighters accelerate in a dive (making fears of hitting your prop with bombs dropped from the centreline incorrect by the way). Accuracy isn't great, meaning that the area effect nature of a rocket salvo is a feature! Speed helps keep you alive. Typhoons took quite bad losses attacking things like radar sites in the weeks before D-Day.
 
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