Greater Mexican Cession to the United States

I explained in the original post

Not effectively.

What do you mean?

I mean to say that the US draws its borders based on equality, choosing what it wants.

If the slave states were outnumbered even more they probably wouldn’t try. Plus I explained earlier.

Again, where? Nope.

Yeah that’s what I said

But your premise for thinking so is wrong.

Not really Britain and France were thinking about joining the Civil War but then Lee lost Sharpsburg, so they lost all hope.

And since the Civil War is changed, their views are changed. They’re not going to be able to do anything, much less do anything.
 
I'm not sure just how eager Britain and France actually were to intervene in the Civil War, especially Britain.

In any event, the Civil War is a generation or so in the future.
 
I'm not sure just how eager Britain and France actually were to intervene in the Civil War, especially Britain.

Napoleon III seemed more eager than he is given credit for, but decided against aiding the Confederacy unless the British were apt to do so as well. Course the British decided not to move, and by '63 the French, British and Spanish were going into Mexico instead.

But yes, this is all about a decade away.
 
Racism may have been part of it, but it wasn't the key part; the major issue was that the entrance of New Mexico was to be as a free state, which would have only further tilted the balance against the slave states who were already worried about the admission of California without any balance on its part.

For the entire 1850-1912 period? No, 1850 was basically the only chance NM had to be admitted during that whole time, as part of an alt-1850. Taylor wanted it to be a free state. The desperate balancing politics of the era could have overcome the natural racism towards NM's Hispanic minority. But once the Senate-balancing politics disappeared, NM was not admitted for statehood until 1912. Racism has everything to do with that.

After the slavery issue had been finally settled, it seems to have become more of a matter of Republicans wanting Arizona and New Mexico as a single state, Democrats wanting them as separate states; a political fight over extended influence in the Senate, similar to the Dakotas.


Republicans are the ones who divided New Mexico territory in two, and Republicans are the ones who admitted both to statehood.
Furthermore, political fights like that would last a decade at most (Colorado), not 62 years.
 
You mean the treatment that happened OTL that resulted in absolutely nothing whatsoever that you have claimed?



Sure thing; it’s not like it’s completely relevant or anything.

I like how you pick out certain things from my argument to try and refute me, because you know you can't do it otherwise. ;) You're a fool if you think racism had nothing to do with it. In just one example, the Americans promised to respect the land titles of Mexicans already living in California at the time of the Cession, but that didn't stop Congress from passing laws to circumvent the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which forced many off their lands and opened them up to American homesteaders. That was only the case in sparsely populated California. If you think racism won't rear it's ugly head when the Americans try for the more populated Mexican states, you're deluding yourself.

But it's cool, continue to live in your little fantasy world of 'murrica fuck yeah :rolleyes:
 
I like how you pick out certain things from my argument to try and refute me, because you know you can't do it otherwise. ;)

I like how you think this is what’s happening. Come off it.

You’re a fool if you think racism had nothing to do with it.

Good thing I never claimed that, then, huh?

But it’s cool, continue to live in your little fantasy world of 'murrica fuck yeah :rolleyes:

All you’re doing is embarrassing yourself. Do you have anything to say to the fact that in a larger cession the rights of the natives would have to be respected more, given their larger proportion? Or just “racism, therefore not happening” again?
 
I like how you think this is what’s happening. Come off it.



Good thing I never claimed that, then, huh?



All you’re doing is embarrassing yourself. Do you have anything to say to the fact that in a larger cession the rights of the natives would have to be respected more, given their larger proportion? Or just “racism, therefore not happening” again?

Yeah, just like the rights of all the Natives the United States respected before and after the Mexican-American War...oh, wait.
 
Yeah, just like the rights of all the Natives the United States respected before and after the Mexican-American War...oh, wait.

It might help us for you to give a little elaboration to explain why you think the US would treat "white" - or at least not "'savage Indian'" Mexicans the same as the various tribes of Native Americans it dealt with.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not a telepath.
 
That was only the case in sparsely populated California. If you think racism won't rear it's ugly head when the Americans try for the more populated Mexican states, you're deluding yourself.

I agree with the various statements several commentators have made that once sectional issues were settled, racism shaped what happened to the descedents of Mexicans in the US. Washington wanted to make sure political power was in the hands of Anglos.

This could be done IOTL Mexican Cession because the US got the territory of Mexico that was only sparsely inhabited.

I think it will be much more problematic to do the same things to territories with much larger Mexican population where it is unlikely enough Anglos will immigrate to take over the new state. I am not saying it won't be attempted, but that it'll be much harder to do and could eventually fail. There is only so long a heavily populated territory can be denied statehood without causing a political crisis.

If there is a Civil War, there will be an incredible incentive to make the heavier populated areas of American Mexico states to 1) reward them for staying loyal to the Union, and 2) to encourage young Mexican men to enlist in the Union Army. The exigencies of war can change a lot of things. If so, even having one or two Mexican majority states in Congress is going to give an important voice. In any important close vote, the Mexican representatives can barter their votes to make sure their ethnic compatriots are treated well and additional territories become states.

White identity would change greatly from the 1840s to the 1920s. Irish were considered white by skin color, but culturally were outside the Anglo identity. Mexicans were considered white by census forms from 1850 to 1920. When immigration from eastern and southern Europe increased from 1890s onward, the "swarthy" immigrants from Italy, Greece, and Eastern Europe were often viewed as not quite white. Yet eventually Irish, Italians, Greeks, and others became accepted as being equally white. There was still class distinctions between such ethnic groups until after WWII, but they weren't considered to be racial differences.

In this scenario, I think the vast majority of Mexican-Americans will also become accepted as white. There may be an attempt to distinguish between the "more white" Mexicans than the "more Indian" Mexicans, but that is more likely to be more local and more cultural than actual legal barriers. It'll probably be more of a function of how well the Mexican in question speaks English and adopts more American manners than Spanish.
 
For the entire 1850-1912 period? No, 1850 was basically the only chance NM had to be admitted during that whole time, as part of an alt-1850. Taylor wanted it to be a free state. The desperate balancing politics of the era could have overcome the natural racism towards NM's Hispanic minority. But once the Senate-balancing politics disappeared, NM was not admitted for statehood until 1912. Racism has everything to do with that.
Apparently New Mexico had almost garnered Statehood in 1876, but for a political blunder on the part of its Congressional Delegate.

Now that is still related to racism, but not for the reasons that you claim. After that point, at least until 1902, it seems that the New Mexicans were fighting over what type of Constitution to send to Congress, the only time it being put to the vote in 1889 (which was defeated). The Knox Bill was the next closest in 1902, and it had passed the House but was defeated in the Senate; amendments were made in the Senate but the House would not agree to them, and so the effort fell apart.

Republicans are the ones who divided New Mexico territory in two, and Republicans are the ones who admitted both to statehood.
Furthermore, political fights like that would last a decade at most (Colorado), not 62 years.
The joint-statehood thing appears to have been a relatively late development actually, so I ask you forgive me on that unfortunate misstep. :eek:

Roosevelt was a proponent, so that is likely where I drew it from. The general idea at the time was that Arizona was not yet ready for statehood, but that they should no longer languish in territorial status. Because New Mexico was considered ready by around 1900, it seemed logical to combine the two, at least to most Republicans.

So in 1906 Arizona and New Mexico nearly came into the Union as a single state, despite extreme opposition in the Arizona territory (a vote was taken on a Constitution, and the votes of the Arizona and New Mexico territories were combined rather than separated. About 1,500 votes was the margin that defeated the bill).

After that point though momentum was entirely behind Arizona and New Mexico becoming states, and separably so.
 
It might help us for you to give a little elaboration to explain why you think the US would treat "white" - or at least not "'savage Indian'" Mexicans the same as the various tribes of Native Americans it dealt with.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not a telepath.

I don't know the exact number of White Mexicans at the time of the Cession, but it seems they've remained at about 10-20% of Mexico's population since at least independence. I have no doubt the White Mexicans (who chances are had at least some wealth or something) could easily learn English and manage. The various Hispanic elites in California and New Mexico who rose to become Congressmen and the like attest to that. You're right, White Mexicans who assimilate will have little problems with the new order, and aside from the occasional brush with prejudice (whether it's their Hispanic name, accent, etc.) they'll be fine. It's the rest of the "Brown" people which are gonna have a bad time about it.

Mestizos passing themselves off as white will also be a thing, it happened frequently enough in Mexico as it was, I can see them trying it with the Anglos as well.
 
I don't know the exact number of White Mexicans at the time of the Cession, but it seems they've remained at about 10-20% of Mexico's population since at least independence. I have no doubt the White Mexicans (who chances are had at least some wealth or something) could easily learn English and manage. The various Hispanic elites in California and New Mexico who rose to become Congressmen and the like attest to that. You're right, White Mexicans who assimilate will have little problems with the new order, and aside from the occasional brush with prejudice (whether it's their Hispanic name, accent, etc.) they'll be fine. It's the rest of the "Brown" people which are gonna have a bad time about it.

Mestizos passing themselves off as white will also be a thing, it happened frequently enough in Mexico as it was, I can see them trying it with the Anglos as well.

And what is "white" for purposes of Spain/independent Mexico may or may not impress US racists (whatever US law says), just to complicate things.

I suspect this could, on paper, be handled - whether the actual human beings with nasty attitudes would try is another question entirely.
 
, but that didn't stop Congress from passing laws to circumvent the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which forced many off their lands and opened them up to American homesteaders. That was only the case in sparsely populated California. If you think racism won't rear it's ugly head when the Americans try for the more populated Mexican states, you're deluding yourself.

1. Do you have a citation for federal action trying to steal the Californios' land?

2. The Indians were easy to dispossess because there weren't very many of them. That'd be much difficult the more densely populated the territory is. Not to say that there wouldn't be racism, especially where Southern-based settlers are concerned, but it might take different forms than straight-up expulsion.
 
And what is "white" for purposes of Spain/independent Mexico may or may not impress US racists (whatever US law says), just to complicate things.

I suspect this could, on paper, be handled - whether the actual human beings with nasty attitudes would try is another question entirely.

Exactly u___u It's possible to translate the paper into action, but you're right, with how racist things were at the time it'd be quite the challenge.

1. Do you have a citation for federal action trying to steal the Californios' land?

2. The Indians were easy to dispossess because there weren't very many of them. That'd be much difficult the more densely populated the territory is. Not to say that there wouldn't be racism, especially where Southern-based settlers are concerned, but it might take different forms than straight-up expulsion.

I was referring to the California Land Act of 1851. The Act put in place a Public Land Commission to determine the validity of land grants issued by the Mexican government. It went contrary to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which only a few years prior guaranteed that the US would respect the land rights of Mexicans living in the Cession. The Act itself didn't stipulate the stealing of any land, it just allowed Whites to more easily (and legally) take the lands. I can see the confusion I caused in my previous statement though, sorry about that.

I agree on 2.
 
And what is "white" for purposes of Spain/independent Mexico may or may not impress US racists (whatever US law says), just to complicate things.

I suspect this could, on paper, be handled - whether the actual human beings with nasty attitudes would try is another question entirely.

Even Today, the U.S. census seems to designate separately Iberian-descended people and potentially mixed or Indigenous Latin American residents of New Mexico. To me, this suggests that a clear racial hierarchy would have come to manifest itself in the new states, with Criollos at the top, and legally equal to whites, Mestizos next, and others below them.
 
Even Today, the U.S. census seems to designate separately Iberian-descended people and potentially mixed or Indigenous Latin American residents of New Mexico. To me, this suggests that a clear racial hierarchy would have come to manifest itself in the new states, with Criollos at the top, and legally equal to whites, Mestizos next, and others below them.

That census map doesn't say anything about Iberian descent. Hispanic is a catch all phrase for anyone from Latin America that speaks Spanish. Sure, someone from Spain would be able to write they were Hispanic, but that category was in no way made with them in mind. You can basically put whatever you want down on the census, which is way so many counties are simply labeled American.

New Mexico had enough people to become a state in 1850, but its statehood was delayed for sixty-two years, until Anglos formed a majority of the population. That should be a big hint on how Hispanics were treated. Mexico got the guarantee that they were to be legally white, because they didn't want them to be enslaved. But to assert that Hispanics would be treated like white people, let alone be voting Republicans in slave states, is laughable.

Large numbers of African Americans voted Republican until the Jim Crow laws managed to stamp that out in the 1890s. If New Mexico and Arizona become states, the Hispanics would certainly vote for the GOP. Given the ability of a significant minority of them to pass as white, even by the higher standards of the day, it will be much more difficulty to disposes Hispanics of the vote than it was African Americans, especially given how long they remained majorities in their states. It will be even more true further south.

Apparently New Mexico had almost garnered Statehood in 1876, but for a political blunder on the part of its Congressional Delegate.

Now that is still related to racism, but not for the reasons that you claim. After that point, at least until 1902, it seems that the New Mexicans were fighting over what type of Constitution to send to Congress, the only time it being put to the vote in 1889 (which was defeated). The Knox Bill was the next closest in 1902, and it had passed the House but was defeated in the Senate; amendments were made in the Senate but the House would not agree to them, and so the effort fell apart.

Wow, that's absolutely amazing bad luck on behalf of that delegate.
 
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That census map doesn't say anything about Iberian descent. Hispanic is a catch all phrase for anyone from Latin America that speaks Spanish. Sure, someone from Spain would be able to write they were Hispanic, but that category was in no way made with them in mind. You can basically put whatever you want down on the census, which is way so many counties are simply labeled American.

Look again specifically at the coloration in the counties of New Mexico.
 
Look again specifically at the coloration in the counties of New Mexico.

I guarantee you that regardless of the fact that the northern counties are labeled Hispanic and the southern counties Mexican, that they are all populated by people of Mexican descent and that there is no appreciable difference in appearance among them. The only difference is that there is likely much more Spanish spoken in the south, which is what I attribute the difference in labeling from. It is self reported, and a Spanish speaker is much more likely to say they're Mexican while a more assimilated English speaker is much more likely to say Hispanic.
 
Even Today, the U.S. census seems to designate separately Iberian-descended people and potentially mixed or Indigenous Latin American residents of New Mexico. To me, this suggests that a clear racial hierarchy would have come to manifest itself in the new states, with Criollos at the top, and legally equal to whites, Mestizos next, and others below them.

There isn't much significant difference between the "Hispanic/Spanish" and the Mexicans in the census save perhaps a slightly different dialect. The former are the Hispanophone New Mexicans who were referred to as Mexicans until you had a large number of Mexican newcomers fleeing the violence and political instability of Mexico in the twentieth century. The Hispanophones of New Mexicans, much like the Scots-Irish to the Irish immigrants in the 19th century, wanted to differentiate themselves from the "Mexicans".

EDIT: Plumber could correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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