Graf Spee interned in Argentina

[anon_user]

Langsdorff was ordered to try to make for Buenos Aires and intern Graf Spee there, presumably hoping to appeal to latent pro-Axis sentiment. I'm not sure this is at all possible, but it is interesting to consider. This has been discussed a bit - however, I want to focus more on what would happen to the ship after internment.

Options for the Argentines:
1) Sell/transfer to Britain. Curries favor with Allies, may be favored by pro-Allied government in place at the time
2) Keep the ship; commission it into the navy. They'd probably need to refit the ship, given that spares from Germany would be sporadic at best; the most likely place would be in the US. Argentine battleships use US weapons already, and the US is a neutral (so it's going to have shipyards free to do the refit work). The other likely option is for a refit in Italy, given Italian-Argentine connections; then again, did they even have shipyards free to conduct the refit work?
2b) US takes over the ship while it's undergoing refit (depending on the length and extent of the refit) after Pearl Harbor.
2c) Italy takes over the ship while it's undergoing refit (depending on length and extent of refit) after declaring war on France.
3) Scrap.

What would the history of Graf Spee be under options 1, 2, 2b or 2c? (option 3 is obvious.) Could the interned ship be put to use by any navy?

One thought - if Graf Spee ends the war in Argentine hands, it's possible that the navy will not get one or both of its US-built cruisers it received in the '50s. Further, Brazil and Chile may press for major warships of their own to help get them into the war.

 

[Orry]

It gets sunk off the Falklands by a British submarine in 1982....

The Royal Navy has a long memory.....

 

[Uriel]

You are missunderstanding the laws of naval warface (I posted the article concerned below).

The Argentine goverment would not take "ownership" of the ship. It has the right/duty to "arrest" it for the time of the war.
Afterwards they would have to relase it again.
In theory it would have to be turned over to the Allies after the war (as they had taken over goverment of Germany) but the Argentines might be allowed to keep it.

The Germans might also try to pull an other "Goeben" and just sell it to Argentine after internment.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague13.asp

Art. 24.

If, notwithstanding the notification of the neutral Power, a belligerent ship of war does not leave a port where it is not entitled to remain, the neutral Power is entitled to take such measures as it considers necessary to render the ship incapable of taking the sea during the war, and the commanding officer of the ship must facilitate the execution of such measures.
When a belligerent ship is detained by a neutral Power, the officers and crew are likewise detained.
The officers and crew thus detained may be left in the ship or kept either on another vessel or on land, and may be subjected to the measures of restriction which it may appear necessary to impose upon them. A sufficient number of men for looking after the vessel must, however, be always left on board.
The officers may be left at liberty on giving their word not to quit the neutral territory without permission.

 

[anon_user]

Orry -
That of course assumes that the Falklands War still happens (which probably assumes that a faltering military junta is in power in Argentina). With a PoD before Perón, does this still happen?

Uriel -
Thanks - forgot about that.

Assuming it's transferred to the Allies in '45...
It's not impossible for it to not be sold to Argentina, particularly if Perón's rise to power occurred in a broadly similar manner - relations between the US and Argentina were strained in the immediate aftermath of the war. Graf Spee makes for some nice scrap in that case.

Assuming that it's 'sold' to Argentina, Goeben-style...
Well, that might force Argentina to take steps to show Britain it's not going to do what the Ottomans did - thus, the idea of selling or transferring Graf Spee to Britain.
If not, there's still the issue of keeping Graf Spee supplied (and of refitting the ship in the first place, since it would've come in having suffered significant damage, unlike Goeben).

Either way...
Maybe Langsdorff doesn't commit suicide? In this situation, he 'succeeded' - he brought Graf Spee into the hands of a nation perceived as a friendly neutral. He probably writes a memoir; theoretically, he (and/or members of his crew) could settle down in Argentina. No real impact, though, just random noise.

 

[Andrew Hudson]

I am not so sure Langsdorf was actually ordered to sail to Argentina. Germany would probably try to do a Goeben or offer the Falkand Islands to Argentina in return for handing over the Graf Spee rather than simply allowing the ship to be interned.However it would be more likely that the Graf Spee would be interned and by the time Argentina entered the war the ship would be an irrelevance and probably ceded to Britain or the USA in reperations

 

[chris N]

It is likely that the Germans would turn over ownership of the ship to Argentina so as to curry favor with the Military of that country. doubt if the Argentinians would be willing to send the ship to the US for fear that FDR might seize it. Sending it to Italy might not be an option either as the British might attempt to take the ship or sink it. Thus the only option would be to try to repair as much of the damage in Argentinan shipyards as possible.

 

[anon_user]

Why would they assume FDR would seize it, given that it's 1939?

Similarly, Italy's still neutral at this point - Britain might not sink the ship. Admittedly, Italy's a bit of a long shot, picked due to pro-Italy sentiment in Argentina and naval connections with the Italians.

Meanwhile, were Argentine shipyards capable of handling Graf Spee? Further, the ship was very low on ammunition, fuel, and so forth - could Argentina have supplied those herself?

 

[Jim Smitty]

Germany would more then likey hand it over to the Argentina to ask for a for some help later in the war. The Argentinan Navy would been more than happy to have the Graf Spee as their flagship. They most likly go had repair the hull but other system on the ship is questionable. The crew minus Langsdorff who still commits suicide would some how be return to Germany and help crew the new battleships that hilter was building at the time. At the end of the war Graf Spee would been sent to a nation will to finish the repairs. Then in 82 RN finally sink the Graf Spee in the that war.

 

[anon_user]

Crew can't return, legally, until the war's over, if she's just interned - if Graf Spee's transferred, though, things get trickier.

Unlike Goeben, which suffered no damage and had only conducted a short bombardment of Algerian embarkation ports, Graf Spee has suffered significant (though certainly not fatal) damage and has run low on ammo. I'm not sure whether the crew would transfer to Argentine naval service in a Goeben-like situation. They did with Goeben, but Argentina isn't the Ottomans and isn't joining the Axis. Then again, maybe they don't realize that. Besides, someone's gotta train the new crew...
***
Incidentally, Graf Spee wouldn't be the flagship - that would probably be Rivadavia or Moreno, the two American-built 25-year-old battleships.
***
I reiterate that it's not entirely certain we get a Falklands War - let alone one in '82 - with a PoD in '39. Keep in mind this is before Perón sees an iota of political power.

 

[Don Lardo]

Among many other problems with the ideas suggested here, I can't see an interned Graf Spee being sold or given to Argentina because I can't believe the Argentine government would be stupid enough to want the ship.

As has already been pointed out, this isn't a case of an undamaged Goeben or Breslau being turned over complete with crews in order to woo potential allies, this is a case of a damaged pocket battleship which Argentine industry cannot repair, full of equipment the Argentine navy cannot operate, and requiring supplies/stores the Argentine economy cannot either import or provide.

From a realistic standpoint, Graf Spee is little more than a floating white elephant for Argentina.

As for the idea that, after they put on different hats and raise a different flag, Britain would meekly allow the crew to take the ship to a Italy, a Nazi Ally, for repairs, words fail me completely. And it doesn't matter that Italy hasn't joined the war yet either.

Like many German "merchant" ships interned worldwide, an interned Spee would basically become a floating depot, espionage center, and diplomatic trouble spot. The Allies would be forced to keep her under surveillance for the duration. The activities of her crew, and of the people posing as members of her crew, will depend on how the war in progressing. Early on Argentina will curry favor with a Germany that seems to be winning by turning a blind eye to many activities and later on Argentina will suck up to the Allies by cracking down on activities she'd earlier ignored.

Very early on during Argentina's blind eye phase, most of the ship's officers and crew would be repatriated to Germany by various means and routes.

Like nearly all of the captured or interned Axis capital units, Graf Spee's most likely fate would await her off Bikini Atoll in the form of the nuclear Baker test.

 

[anon_user]

The Italy thing is very doubtful - if anything, it would just see the ship re-interned by the British under somewhat questionable bases. An American refit seems a bit more possible, though in '39, there's the problem that the US is a strict neutral. Any refit would need tacit British permission; I'm not entirely sure it would be permitted. Certainly not without a mostly-Argentine (and perhaps partly-British) crew...

So, as interesting as it might be to see a sort of 'mini-Alaska' - an early pocket battleship in US Navy service - or to see Graf Spee serving into the '70s or '80s, I think Don Lardo's right as to the ultimate fate of the ship.

 

[TheMann]

Considering that they had no hope of getting it back, Berlin would probably allow the Argentines to keep it in return for help in the war. Argentina would probably intern the vessel, while Argentine technicians would probably be able to fix its hull damage but not others. Under the circumstances, and the likelihood that Argentina would help German efforts at commerce raiding, the British probably wouldn't object to it being refitted in the US, provided its not used against the RN or any British Navy. The Argentines could almost certainly manufacture 280mm ammunition for it, and with this done, the ship is commissioned into the Argentine Navy in 1943. Argentina declares war on the Axis in November 1944, and while the ship, now christened ARA La Argentina, is part of Argentina's contribution to Allied naval efforts in the Pacific, serving as its flagship, joined by aging battleship Rivadavia and heavy cruiser Almirante Brown, as well as a number of destroyers. This fleet leaves Buenos Aires on January 11, and after refueling at Durban and Perth, the Argentine armada arrives in the Pacific on March 20, quickly sailing past the Phillippines to join the American attack on Okinawa, with Rivadavia joining the US battle line. Despite weaknesses, particularly in anti-aircraft armament, the old battlewagon holds its own, and the pocket battleship is used to back up American and Australian heavy cruisers in operations against the Japanese.

After the war, the battleships are decommissioned in 1947-48, but the newer cruiser remains in service. The Argentine technicians learn much from the design, and similar-design diesel engines to the pocket battleship are used in extensive rebuilds of the two Veintincinco de Mayo class cruisers in 1955-57, and these are joined by two ex-US Navy Brooklyn-class light cruisers in 1951. All of the vessels are fitted with the American Mk-25 missile launcher and Sea Sparrow SAMs in the mid-1970s.

The Junta's taking power in 1976 sees all five vessels out on active operations for the first time since the early 1960s, and the five vessels are set up as Argentina's battle division, which is half of Argentina's naval plan in the Falklands War in 1982. Nueve de Julio is assigned to the aircraft carrier Veintincinco de Mayo and her battle group, while the others are assigned to a unit based around the La Argentina. The RN fears the cruiser division - it's got longer-ranged gun weapons than anything the RN has - and so two nuclear submarines are sent to sink them. The attack by the HMS Conqueror on the group sinks the Almirante Brown and badly damages the Patria, but ASROC torpedoes from the battle group's destroyers are enough to drive the British sub off, and La Argentina and Buenos Aires make it to Stanley harbor. The British don't like this one bit, and the Royal Air Force decides to hit them with Vulcan bombers as part of the Black Buck raids, which are refitted with Harpoon missiles to do the job. The first such attack damages Buenos Aires beyond repair, but La Argentina keeps fighting, though by now she is running low on ammunition. A second strike, this time by Harriers with 1000-lb bombs, does more damage, disabling her forward batteries and causing a loss of electrical power. On June 5, the third set of raids by Vulcan bombers drops seven 1000-lb bombs right on La Argentina, doing severe damage and causing the ship to be abandoned.

After the surrender, the remains of the Argentine Navy return to port, but the hulk of the La Argentina laid in Port Stanley for several months before she was eventually scrapped by the British. The final remains were cleared away in the summer of 1984.