Gothic/Avar/Slavic/Magyar Dynasties in the Byzantine Empire

[Universal Wisdom]

Greetings folks,

The Byzantine Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire in the richer East. During its tenure, it was bordered by various states and confederations on all sides, in Europe.

What if the Byzantine Empire could spread more influence among the Goths, Slavs or the Avars and the Magyars(ancestors of today's Hungarians) in a way like the Roman Empire did in its olden days? What if we had dynasties of these origins in the Byzantine Empire? How would it influence European History and the West Asia(which was then a part of the Byzantine Empire, then)? How would the Unity of the Empire and the Eastern part of Europe take shape?

Note that I know that all these people didn't live simultaneously with each other. They were of different eras, if anything.

 

[gurgu]

Well, Basil the Bulgaroctone( exterminator of Bulgarians, but only for the victories and the annexation of Bulgaria, he was not that cruel, just a bit harsh in punishments for betrayal) gave the Bulgarian few less taxes and freedom to keep their language etc.
If his successors are not dumb idiots and keep it this way, slowly integrating Bulgarians there might be some Bulgarian noble son able to take the throne after some marriage with a Greek woman( required in order to be accepted as emperor). Also the empire won't never face the Second Bulgarian empire(200 years of wars) and more troops and stability on the European lands, thus bigger chances to avoid ottomans spread( or at least European landing

 

[Hegemon]

Well, Basil the Bulgaroctone( exterminator of Bulgarians, but only for the victories and the annexation of Bulgaria, he was not that cruel, just a bit harsh in punishments for betrayal) gave the Bulgarian few less taxes and freedom to keep their language etc.
If his successors are not dumb idiots and keep it this way, slowly integrating Bulgarians there might be some Bulgarian noble son able to take the throne after some marriage with a Greek woman( required in order to be accepted as emperor). Also the empire won't never face the Second Bulgarian empire(200 years of wars) and more troops and stability on the European lands, thus bigger chances to avoid ottomans spread( or at least European landing

Some might argue that he was calculatingly, sadistically cruel, and they would have a point. If memory serves, Basil once captured an army of 15000 or so Bulgarians, but rather than freeing them, imprisoning them, executing them, or ransoming them, he devised a particularly cruel method of dealing with them. He had 99 out of each hundred blinded in both eyes and the one remaining one blinded in one eye to lead them home and then set them free. The traumatized soldiers remained a burden on their families and communities for the rest of their lives, suffering but not dying, while inspiring fear into the Bulgarians. Even the stubborn Tsar Samuil was said to have been deathly shocked that Basil would devise such a cruelty, dying soon after. That’s ice cold if you ask me.

 

[gurgu]

Some might argue that he was calculatingly, sadistically cruel, and they would have a point. If memory serves, Basil once captured an army of 15000 or so Bulgarians, but rather than freeing them, imprisoning them, executing them, or ransoming them, he devised a particularly cruel method of dealing with them. He had 99 out of each hundred blinded in both eyes and the one remaining one blinded in one eye to lead them home and then set them free. The traumatized soldiers remained a burden on their families and communities for the rest of their lives, suffering but not dying, while inspiring fear into the Bulgarians. Even the stubborn Tsar Samuil was said to have been deathly shocked that Basil would devise such a cruelty, dying soon after. That’s ice cold if you ask me.

he did this because the Bulgarian tsar asked for peace and then ambushed him with that army, so i have to say that a bit of vengeance is accepted

 

[kholieken]

Main problem is Byzantine Greeks had become ethnic groups and no longer accept "barbarian" ruler. its similar with Romans, live together in one empire for several centuries, and now they become one people. They even had tension with Georgian (who are also Orthodox) .

 

[Tibi088]

The hungarian king Bela III was raised in Byzantion and was even for a time heir to the throne. Would he qualify?

 

[Clockro4ch]

Magyars(ancestors of today's Hungarians)

As a Hungarian person, I find this part of the sentence absolutely hilarious. It's like saying "Deutsches (ancestors of today's Germans)".

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

The hungarian king Bela III was raised in Byzantion and was even for a time heir to the throne. Would he qualify?

I always thought this was one of the best PoDs for a surviving Byzantine Empire. Short term autonomy, with a long term plan to unite the Hungarian Kingdom and the Roman Empire. The Hungarians effectively provide a second demographic base to secure Europe, and provide a great border, and huge defence in depth for the European Roman Empire. If the Roman-Hungarian Union can secure the Pruth and the Danube, that'd be an economic transformation for the region that could resemble the Rhineland.

---

As to the OP, the Foederati of the West basically spelled out the lesson of not trusting these groups. This isn't like the Seljuks, or anything like that for Persia, it'd have to be a complete conquest, which I'm not sure how to work. Do we have a PoD where the Visigoths aren't abused, leading to Adrianople, but instead they're established as a buffer state on the northern side of the Danube, to be later annexed, and later the various dynasties that arise from that region could be known as the Gothic Dynasties - which would be a really cool trick. Alternatively, you'd need to see the Emperor get captured, and agree to a peace where the Romans in name annex the Visigoths, but the Visigothic King gets an office akin to the Magister Militum and becomes the real power. Which is terrifyingly reminiscent of the West.

Naw, the only way I can see it is if the Romans in the East became "The Sanctuary of Europe" against the Huns. You want to join us? Alright, we'll fight with you, in this border territory, and we'll put the defensive force at this location, etc. Use the Migration to create a series of Buffer Territories, that then lead to those regions becoming part of the Roman Establishment, and then be palatable Emperors.

 

[Tibi088]

As a Hungarian person, I find this part of the sentence absolutely hilarious. It's like saying "Deutsches (ancestors of today's Germans)".

The thing is we hungarians call ourselfs "magyar" regardless of period so it might seem funny. However english regarding the nomadic period of our history - before the founding of the state - seem to be using predominantly "magyars" to refer to the tribes. After that usually hungarians - with some notable exceptions especially in the 19th century but I went already offtopic so I wont go into details - also im not sure I understand all the nuances.

 

[gurgu]

The thing is we hungarians call ourselfs "magyar" regardless of period so it might seem funny. However english regarding the nomadic period of our history - before the founding of the state - seem to be using predominantly "magyars" to refer to the tribes. After that usually hungarians - with some notable exceptions especially in the 19th century but I went already offtopic so I wont go into details - also im not sure I understand all the nuances.

also the fact that hungarians are still magyars is proved from the language, no similarities with any other country in europe

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

The Byzantines weren't really ethnically prejudiced but rather quite nationally prejudiced. Provided these Goths/Avars/Slavs/Magyars adopt imperial ideology, Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, and at least some sort of fluency in Greek there's nothing prohibiting them from advancement in the Byzantine hierarchy. OTOH a foreign king or foreign potentate would be a bridge way too far.

Basil I could indeed have been of Armenian ancestry, but he was born and raised in the empire and his ethnicity played virtually no role in his rise to power.

 

[gurgu]

The Byzantines weren't really ethnically prejudiced but rather quite nationally prejudiced. Provided these Goths/Avars/Slavs/Magyars adopt imperial ideology, Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, and at least some sort of fluency in Greek there's nothing prohibiting them from advancement in the Byzantine hierarchy. OTOH a foreign king or foreign potentate would be a bridge way too far.

Basil I could indeed have been of Armenian ancestry, but he was born and raised in the empire and his ethnicity played virtually no role in his rise to power.

Now this is a story all about how
My life got flipped turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the basileus of an empire called ERE

west macedonia born and raised
On the battlefield is where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all great
And all shooting some serbian outside of the state
When a couple of bulgarian who were up to no good
Started making trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in costantinople"
I begged and pleaded with her day after day
But she packed my armor and sent me on my way
She gave me a kiss and then she gave me my claim
I put my elm on and said "I might as well go take it"
First class, yo, this is bad
Drinking wine juice out of a champagne glass
Is this what the people of costantinople living like?
Hmmm, this might be all right
But wait, I hear they're prissy, bourgeois, and all that
Is this the type of place that they should send this cool cat?
I don't think so, I'll see when I get by
I hope they're prepared for the basileous of the ERE

 

[gurgu]

@CalBear why was @Universal Wisdom banned?

 

[AntoniousTheBro]

Now this is a story all about how
My life got flipped turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the basileus of an empire called ERE

west macedonia born and raised
On the battlefield is where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all great
And all shooting some serbian outside of the state
When a couple of bulgarian who were up to no good
Started making trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in costantinople"
I begged and pleaded with her day after day
But she packed my armor and sent me on my way
She gave me a kiss and then she gave me my claim
I put my elm on and said "I might as well go take it"
First class, yo, this is bad
Drinking wine juice out of a champagne glass
Is this what the people of costantinople living like?
Hmmm, this might be all right
But wait, I hear they're prissy, bourgeois, and all that
Is this the type of place that they should send this cool cat?
I don't think so, I'll see when I get by
I hope they're prepared for the basileous of the ERE

This art must be preserved at all costs

 

[Byzantion]

A Rus Dynasty would be interesting. Or even a Christian Turkish one.

 

[gurgu]

A Rus Dynasty would be interesting. Or even a Christian Turkish one.

the rus until year 1000 if i'm correct weren't even that orthodox( some were and others went back to perud and other gods) so it might be difficult

 

[DocJamore]

Ive seen conniving evidence on this site that the very last time the Byzantines could have turned themselves around is having Stefan Dušan of Serbia being crowned Emperor in Constantinople and merging the two countries into a formidable bloc. This could potentially result in a renewed empire able to repel the Ottoman incursions from the Balkans.

@CalBear why was @Universal Wisdom banned?

He was probably a sock of a banned user. It's site policy to ban socks. Usually no explanation is given in these kinds of cases, so it is easy to point out.

 

[gurgu]

Ive seen conniving evidence on this site that the very last time the Byzantines could have turned themselves around is having Stefan Dušan of Serbia being crowned Emperor in Constantinople and merging the two countries into a formidable bloc. This could potentially result in a renewed empire able to repel the Ottoman incursions from the Balkans.

yeah, and the other one was Simeon I of bulgaria, both were pretty unlucky.

He was probably a sock of a banned user. It's site policy to ban socks. Usually no explanation is given in these kinds of cases, so it is easy to point out.

sock of a banned user? what does it mean?( registered 2 months ago, still getting used to site slang)

 

[DocJamore]

yeah, and the other one was Simeon I of bulgaria, both were pretty unlucky.

Both were unlucky to be sure, but Stefan was born three centuries after Simeon when the empire was in dire straights so it would have been more remarkable to have turned itself around in that time period.

sock of a banned user? what does it mean?( registered 2 months ago, still getting used to site slang)

A "Sock" is short for "Sock puppet" which means an alternate account. It is very simple. A user gets banned from the site. They try to sneak back in by making another account. This is against the rules, so they get banned again. To an outsider, it seems that is new user gets banned without explanation but in actually this is very common. Most get caught upon making an account but sometimes one slips through.

Long story short. If a new user gets banned for seemly no reason, they are a Sock.

 

[Byzantion]

Greetings folks,

The Byzantine Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire in the richer East. During its tenure, it was bordered by various states and confederations on all sides, in Europe.

What if the Byzantine Empire could spread more influence among the Goths, Slavs or the Avars and the Magyars(ancestors of today's Hungarians) in a way like the Roman Empire did in its olden days? What if we had dynasties of these origins in the Byzantine Empire? How would it influence European History and the West Asia(which was then a part of the Byzantine Empire, then)? How would the Unity of the Empire and the Eastern part of Europe take shape?

Note that I know that all these people didn't live simultaneously with each other. They were of different eras, if anything.

Maybe a Christian Turkish Dynasty out of a Magister militum like situation ? A Turkish Odoacer would be interesting. Maybe Turkish tribal pagan mercenaries of a particular tribe and their communities settle in Anatolia, fight for Rum. One of their leaders gains Power in times of instability, coups.