Gone The New Hope
- Thread starter The Admiral Hook
- Start date
I recommend this:
http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/
It covers the Star Wars saga's mythology as it was unfolding in Lucas' head and in production. Lucas likes to pretend he had it all written out, which is the biggest lie of the franchise. He very much didn't, and while he had vague ideas, things came gradually as films were written and filmed. For example, Luke and Leia were not originally intended nor thought of to be brother and sister. That was retroactively made what happened. Also, Darth Vader was not intended to be the father until writing started on "Empire Strikes Back". The original intent was purely that Vader had killed Luke's father. There also wasn't any Emperor until "Empire Strikes Back". I think it was either intended to be Vader or Grand Moff Tarkin that ran everything. And Darth Vader wasn't a title. It was originally intended that it was his first name was Darth and his last name was Vader.
For fleshing out an alternate Star Wars franchise, I very much recommend this site. He also has a book, but if you don't buy that, just read the articles on the site.
http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/
It covers the Star Wars saga's mythology as it was unfolding in Lucas' head and in production. Lucas likes to pretend he had it all written out, which is the biggest lie of the franchise. He very much didn't, and while he had vague ideas, things came gradually as films were written and filmed. For example, Luke and Leia were not originally intended nor thought of to be brother and sister. That was retroactively made what happened. Also, Darth Vader was not intended to be the father until writing started on "Empire Strikes Back". The original intent was purely that Vader had killed Luke's father. There also wasn't any Emperor until "Empire Strikes Back". I think it was either intended to be Vader or Grand Moff Tarkin that ran everything. And Darth Vader wasn't a title. It was originally intended that it was his first name was Darth and his last name was Vader.
For fleshing out an alternate Star Wars franchise, I very much recommend this site. He also has a book, but if you don't buy that, just read the articles on the site.
How tantalizing! Though between all of us, with our radically different ideas, you've given yourself quite the challenge
He's a fascinating character, part of why I chose to write about him in my own timeline, and there's definitely lots of room for multiple takes on what makes him tick.TheInfiniteApe said:
As you know, Star Wars is often described as a film that was "made in editing". I really don't doubt their ability to fashion something truly wonderful and memorable out of re-shot material. The structure of the film that emerged IOTL, as of the end of shooting, effectively does not yet exist. Thematically, Luke completing the Hero's Journey with a sacrifice is just as potent as his survival, if not more so. The "redemption" comes from Han anyway, and he'd still be able to save the mission, even if he doesn't save Luke.
You're proposing a shared-universe anthology series? Those don't tend to do very well on the big screen. People connect with characters as opposed to fantastic settings, and they would be very angry if they didn't get to see the continuing adventures of Luke and Han and Leia. That's also taking a very big risk, introducing a whole new set of characters who might not meet with the same audience approval (and bringing the momentum from the previous film to a screeching halt). I guess it might work, if the sequel made it clear that the Battle of Yavin happened this many years ago, and now we're watching the next generation and their adventures, building directly on the successes that we witnessed in the first film. Time-shifting like that has had proven success IOTL, though obviously we couldn't go back in that case.ColeMercury said:
I don't envy the guy they would cast to play Luke in this scenario.ColeMercury said:
I do agree that this is a very solid idea, and it goes hand-in-hand with making Han the new protagonist (and realistically, it's either him or Leia).ColeMercury said:
I second this recommendation wholeheartedly. A fantastic resource.
Calling the original Star Wars highly anticipated is extremely inaccurate historically. Fox was convinced the film was going to be a box office bomb. That's why they cut the deal with Lucas where he would waive his director's fee, and in exchange, he would receive all profits from the film's merchandise. Fox was expecting that they would save a ton of money because they were not expecting there to be any merchandise. When the film was released, it only opened in 40 theaters because it wasn't expected to be good.
Orville_third
Banned
The guy who played Jabba was a guy named Declan Mulholland, who played a minor role in the Doctor Who episode, "The Androids of Tara".
Hmmm...could this make Star Wars even more popular?
Hmmm...could this make Star Wars even more popular?
Only on the technical side. The film's story, structure and performances were all in place before editing began.
A minor character in a scene deleted from the movie also played a minor character in another scifi series? I'm not seeing a big story there. If anything, it's apt to funnel off the other way, but...it's unlikely there too.
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TCF was doing a pretty desperate marketing campaign by January that didn't extend to general projected audience type people but focused more on young science fiction fans. It worked remarkably well as we have seen OTL. The writer of the article was probably not a house wife or a blue collar worker, but rather a writer in Los Angeles writing an article about a film that, at that time, was highly anticipated amongst young people and Los Angelites in general.
And I have read some things which suggested that Star Wars was anticipated by more general audiences in larger cities simply because it was a special effects film that they had seen in trailers. Those films were very popular in the seventies.
Now...
Mark Hamill's death has increased a lot of promotion for the film, and the delay has increased the studios ability to promote it.
It is ITTL a highly anticipated film to some people.
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“It never occurred to me to have this reluctant hero, a rogue skeptic, Han Solo take up the mantle of Jedi and eventually confront Vader for his friend. My new struggle was to show how the luck of Solo was less than accidental. The Force was never strong with Solo even in the early drafts. The movies were never ultimately supposed to be about him. To be honest, an awful lot of Star Wars was myself making it up as I went along. There were early concepts that stuck or were changed over the years… but there was never a master plan. It was totally organic.”
- George Lucas, August 2001
“We discovered over the course of examining the post-production that we had options: One, we could leave it the way it is and not make any other Star Wars films which we didn’t want to do. Two, we could leave it the way it is and kill Luke off-screen at the beginning of a Han Solo oriented second film which seemed patently ridiculous. Three, we could do reshoots and pickups and editing and give Luke’s story less importance while focusing on the much more complex journey of this ne’er-do-well turned savior. Everyone seemed to like it but felt somewhat wrong when considering that a good friend and actor had to die to make the necessity of that decision even possible…”
- George Lucas, May 1981
Excerpts taken from “The Force Behind The Magic”, a documentary airing in July 1997…
Lucas: “I met with some people on the film two weeks after the accident to see what could quickly be done to complete the film in a satisfactory way. Carrie, Alan [Ladd Jr.], and Harrison were there and Harrison had recommended we bring some writers on as a consultant. We got Leigh Brackett via Alan Ladd Jr. and Alan Dean Foster was there as well; along with the special effects people and Gary and Marcia. We knew we had some options but I had lost a lot of confidence since we lost Mark. Harrison wasn’t keen on continuing the saga and since Star Wars was kind of a standalone film it made sense not to continue it, even though Carrie's contract would still require her to star in more if we were allowed to make them.”
Gary Kurtz (Producer): “I really pushed for more films. I could tell Lucas had some ideas about how to transition the plot from being ‘Luke-centric’ to being a story about the non-believer accepting his fate and growing into a master - for Luke. He wanted to do it, but was afraid the studio wouldn’t go for it or it would appear to potential fans to be disrespectful to Mark. Alan Dean Foster suggested Luke’s sacrifice really changing Han Solo’s attitude and sending him on this quest for vengeance, which would lead to his flirtation with the Dark Side. That meeting was when Alan Ladd Jr. really decided to campaign for greenlighting more pictures, although it would of course be conditional on the success of Star Wars. He got excited about the future of Star Wars at that meeting, despite the tragedy. We all did. The next film would be incredibly dark, though, we knew that the whole time…”
Ford: “We knew… what needed to be changed in the film to make it work. But I had some problems. I asked George, ‘Well, what happens to Artoo?’”
Lucas: “Harrison wanted to make sure we had Luke jettison R2-D2 before he made his decision to die. That gave me some ideas for how to open a sequel and Brackett and Foster were making notes together. Harrison was helpful because he was a skeptic in a way. He was the one who said that we couldn’t kill Obi-Wan since we now had to kill Luke and he was right. For something so light-hearted it made no sense to have these last two Jedi Knights killed in action before the end. The story would be over and everything would look incredibly sad. There needed to be hope.”
Guinness and Ford to reshoot scenes on “STAR WARS”
“…While the process of retooling the now highly anticipated film is on or ahead of schedule, sources at Twentieth Century Fox have said that Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford must return to set before editing can be completed; which must be an allusion to the necessity of reshooting some scenes for continuity. Meanwhile, the fervor for anything Star Wars related is heating up, with television shows featuring late actor Mark Hamill appearing in re-runs and sales of the novelized version of the original script for the film steadily increasing. Lucas stated earlier this month that the film tie-in edition would be released concurrent to the release of the film which has been pushed back to July 20th…”
- L.A. Times, February 3rd, 1977
“The delay on release became a blessing in a way, in that it allowed us more time to work on what was essentially an already completed film that needed a lot of improvement. This was huge for us. I got to work on the character of Jabba the Hutt, shoot more Harrison and more between Harrison and Alec, refine special effects sequences and, perhaps most importantly, give Mark Hamill the film he deserved to say goodbye with.”
- George Lucas, 1997
“Star Wars opening weekend: An unexpected $2,000,500 and counting…”
“Revised novelization of Star Wars approaching bestseller status…”
“Twentieth Century Fox approves sequels to Star Wars, after teaser ending and record breaking box office numbers leave fans demanding ‘MORE!’”
“It earned over three hundred and fifty million dollars domestically, over five hundred million internationally, and a good actor and friend died while making it… of course I was going to come back to Star Wars…”
- Harrison Ford
(Synopsis of completed film to follow…)
- George Lucas, August 2001
“We discovered over the course of examining the post-production that we had options: One, we could leave it the way it is and not make any other Star Wars films which we didn’t want to do. Two, we could leave it the way it is and kill Luke off-screen at the beginning of a Han Solo oriented second film which seemed patently ridiculous. Three, we could do reshoots and pickups and editing and give Luke’s story less importance while focusing on the much more complex journey of this ne’er-do-well turned savior. Everyone seemed to like it but felt somewhat wrong when considering that a good friend and actor had to die to make the necessity of that decision even possible…”
- George Lucas, May 1981
Excerpts taken from “The Force Behind The Magic”, a documentary airing in July 1997…
Lucas: “I met with some people on the film two weeks after the accident to see what could quickly be done to complete the film in a satisfactory way. Carrie, Alan [Ladd Jr.], and Harrison were there and Harrison had recommended we bring some writers on as a consultant. We got Leigh Brackett via Alan Ladd Jr. and Alan Dean Foster was there as well; along with the special effects people and Gary and Marcia. We knew we had some options but I had lost a lot of confidence since we lost Mark. Harrison wasn’t keen on continuing the saga and since Star Wars was kind of a standalone film it made sense not to continue it, even though Carrie's contract would still require her to star in more if we were allowed to make them.”
Gary Kurtz (Producer): “I really pushed for more films. I could tell Lucas had some ideas about how to transition the plot from being ‘Luke-centric’ to being a story about the non-believer accepting his fate and growing into a master - for Luke. He wanted to do it, but was afraid the studio wouldn’t go for it or it would appear to potential fans to be disrespectful to Mark. Alan Dean Foster suggested Luke’s sacrifice really changing Han Solo’s attitude and sending him on this quest for vengeance, which would lead to his flirtation with the Dark Side. That meeting was when Alan Ladd Jr. really decided to campaign for greenlighting more pictures, although it would of course be conditional on the success of Star Wars. He got excited about the future of Star Wars at that meeting, despite the tragedy. We all did. The next film would be incredibly dark, though, we knew that the whole time…”
Ford: “We knew… what needed to be changed in the film to make it work. But I had some problems. I asked George, ‘Well, what happens to Artoo?’”
Lucas: “Harrison wanted to make sure we had Luke jettison R2-D2 before he made his decision to die. That gave me some ideas for how to open a sequel and Brackett and Foster were making notes together. Harrison was helpful because he was a skeptic in a way. He was the one who said that we couldn’t kill Obi-Wan since we now had to kill Luke and he was right. For something so light-hearted it made no sense to have these last two Jedi Knights killed in action before the end. The story would be over and everything would look incredibly sad. There needed to be hope.”
Guinness and Ford to reshoot scenes on “STAR WARS”
“…While the process of retooling the now highly anticipated film is on or ahead of schedule, sources at Twentieth Century Fox have said that Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford must return to set before editing can be completed; which must be an allusion to the necessity of reshooting some scenes for continuity. Meanwhile, the fervor for anything Star Wars related is heating up, with television shows featuring late actor Mark Hamill appearing in re-runs and sales of the novelized version of the original script for the film steadily increasing. Lucas stated earlier this month that the film tie-in edition would be released concurrent to the release of the film which has been pushed back to July 20th…”
- L.A. Times, February 3rd, 1977
“The delay on release became a blessing in a way, in that it allowed us more time to work on what was essentially an already completed film that needed a lot of improvement. This was huge for us. I got to work on the character of Jabba the Hutt, shoot more Harrison and more between Harrison and Alec, refine special effects sequences and, perhaps most importantly, give Mark Hamill the film he deserved to say goodbye with.”
- George Lucas, 1997
“Star Wars opening weekend: An unexpected $2,000,500 and counting…”
“Revised novelization of Star Wars approaching bestseller status…”
“Twentieth Century Fox approves sequels to Star Wars, after teaser ending and record breaking box office numbers leave fans demanding ‘MORE!’”
“It earned over three hundred and fifty million dollars domestically, over five hundred million internationally, and a good actor and friend died while making it… of course I was going to come back to Star Wars…”
- Harrison Ford
(Synopsis of completed film to follow…)
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This is very revealing. You have the modern-day George Lucas ("Jorge", I like to call him), post-OTL Special Edition and Prequel Trilogy, admitting that there was never a Master Plan. While that's certainly what the weight of the evidence supports, it would take a miracle to get him to confess that. This cannot be understated.
Another key reveal here. After their acrimonious divorce in 1983, Lucas did his best to pretend that his ex-wife never existed, and certainly had no part in Star Wars, when most objective sources describe her as his "secret weapon", the desperately-needed "heart" component to his "head", and (most importantly) a better editor than him. For him to acknowledge Marcia's existence, there are two possibilities: either the two did not divorce (very possible, with a 1977 POD; their marriage could easily have been saved well into the 1980s), or they did divorce, but George (as opposed to Jorge) didn't pull the first in a very long line of Orwellian moves with regards to the history of Star Wars.TheInfiniteApe said:
On that same note, Gary Kurtz being mentioned (and being interviewed for a presumably pro-Lucasfilm documentary in 1997) is also a very good thing.
I know I'm dwelling on this, but it's just so remarkable to see Lucas sharing credit on aspects of story and production like this. Yes, IOTL, he was always quick to credit those who did the work he obviously could not (such as John Williams, and the recently deceased Stuart Freeborn, for example), but not in the "auteur" department.TheInfiniteApe said:
Enough focusing on that - even though, in the long term, it's incredibly promising for the future of Star Wars and for Lucasfilm. More immediately, I really like your chosen angle! Han and his spiritual redemption becoming the overriding arc of the series makes a lot of sense, and it helps compensate for Han not really having as strong a character arc in the latter two films IOTL (romance with Leia aside). Harrison Ford famously didn't care for Han IOTL, but I can definitely see that changing here. Though making him the unquestionable lead of Star Wars does lead to many questions about Raiders... and then there's Guinness. I suspected that you might have him "live" somehow, since killing two Jedi is redundant from a story perspective, though I'll reserve my thoughts on how it's done in the film proper until you post about it. This probably means that Guinness is coming back for an additional film - he could always die in that one instead, after having trained Han in much the same way he trained Luke in the first film. (Sources vary on who made the decision to kill Obi-Wan - Guinness always took credit for it himself, but others who have less of a chip on their shoulder credit Marcia Lucas for the idea.)
Definitely looking forward to your upcoming synopsis! This is fascinating so far
Not only the Indiana Jones series will be affected by the butterfly, but Harrisons entire career will be affected. Check at his IMDb site. Will his agent presuade him that making Regarding Henry or Frantic will not scare away the fans he had.
Will this mean that Patriot Games and the rest of the Ryanversemovies are butterflied away?
How does Marks demise butterfly Carrie Fishers life and career. Might she avoid the drug problems she got?
Another thing. Might we see Wedge getting a bigger part and how will that affect Denis Lawsons life and career?
I'm glad you're picking up what I'm dropping. Particularly since you are a highly respected (at least by myself) member of that pop culture TL revolution that I would have been a part of had my laptop not been stolen days before that season began.
Thanks so much for reading and keep on doing what you're doing...
A lot of this falls under spoilers... but I'll give you one good hint:
"One ping only..."
I was 13 when the first Star Wars came out, and totally bought into the idea that GL had it 'plotted in advance'. I was terribly disappointed to discover that he was making it up as he went along, with constant rewrites and revisions. I think it was the lie about what he did more than what he did that disturbed me.
I agree with the poster who took issue with the statement that Star Wars was a highly anticipated film. It was anticipated by SF fans, but even then, no more than other movies such as Zardoz and Close Encounters which finally had A-list directors, actors, and production costs. A lot of buzz was generated by early pre-release reviews/articles in Rolling Stone and Time magazine, but nobody expected it to be the hit it became
Also, as a person old enough to have seen Star Wars as originally released as an adult, I did not leave the theatre believing Luke was any more of a major character than Han. Had Hamill died and the success of Star Wars required a sequel or sequels, I certainly agree that the story arc could easily have been transferred to Han Solo for the reasons given. On the other hand, it is just as likely they could have cast another actor as Luke and gone ahead. Easy enough to create an "accident" or "injury" to Luke in the interval between Star Wars and Empire that required his face to be reconstructed and voice to have changed.
Also, as a person old enough to have seen Star Wars as originally released as an adult, I did not leave the theatre believing Luke was any more of a major character than Han. Had Hamill died and the success of Star Wars required a sequel or sequels, I certainly agree that the story arc could easily have been transferred to Han Solo for the reasons given. On the other hand, it is just as likely they could have cast another actor as Luke and gone ahead. Easy enough to create an "accident" or "injury" to Luke in the interval between Star Wars and Empire that required his face to be reconstructed and voice to have changed.
You are setting Ford up to become Jack Ryan in Hunt for Red October? I think Baldwin did that movie ok
Ford was the first choice for Ryan, but when he couldn't, due to schedule conflict (IIRC), they picked Baldwin.
You flatter me, sir
Nothing honours me more than such talented writers as yourself claiming that I had any influence on them whatsoever.I will if you will! (Though you might want to post updates a little more often than I do.)TheInfiniteApe said:
Then please remember to change the man who played Ramius, otherwise it will be a modern Indy Jones if Harrisson and Connory still does the Indy movie