Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

FDR was not going to charge anyone from Britain with any crime. The US looked the other way on election interference and on assassinations carried out on US soil according to Intrepid.

Food blockades constitute a war crime. See famine (starvation) of civilians (API Art. 54, APII Art. 14, Rule 53)


Also the Statute of the International Criminal Court establishes that starvation of civilians constitutes a war crime when committed in international armed conflicts.
I would like to point out that the food blockade as a war crime only happened AFTER WW2 ended. During WW2 it was perfectly legal.

As for the other issues I would like to point out the articles about the election stuff straight up say the US government didn't know anything about it. Also I'm like 90% certain most of it was debunked anyway. Also the assassinations on US soil I know are a conspiracy theory.
 
The USA in this timeline is already far more jaded about their little adventure in the great war, and so would probably have given less leeway to the Western European democracies this time around.
 
How in the hell does Churchill of all fucking people end up as the worst option? Especially in regard to relations with the US? Like that's the one thing the man knew from the get go, that keeping the US friendly with the British was the only way to save them, even before he was appointed as First Lord the second time round. I know FDR isn't president(who is again BTW?) here but unless he somehow gets the president killed and it being 100% his fault there's no way Churchill could screw it up that bad.
He's the worst plausible option, as in of the half dozen or so senior figures in the Conservative Party who are acceptable to King Edward, he's the one people think was the worst choice. This is because to paraphrase some of his biographers in OTL, Churchill saw himself as a "Man of Destiny", namely someone with the answers and therefore someone who will do something, rather than sit down, shut up and make sure the professionals can do their jobs in peace

Churchill knows that he needs good relations with the United States, unfortunately knowing that and being able to deliver that are not the same thing, especially when different national priorities and pride get involved
 
Churchill knows that he needs good relations with the United States, unfortunately knowing that and being able to deliver that are not the same thing, especially when different national priorities and pride get involved
See the thing is Churchill knew how to deal with the US though. Like yeah he'd bluster but when FDR would tell him to quit the BS and such he would. If you think the man who'd be willing to parley with the devil himself if the Nazis invaded hell wouldn't do whatever it takes to get the US on his side you chose the wrong man.
 
See the thing is Churchill knew how to deal with the US though. Like yeah he'd bluster but when FDR would tell him to quit the BS and such he would. If you think the man who'd be willing to parley with the devil himself if the Nazis invaded hell wouldn't do whatever it takes to get the US on his side you chose the wrong man.
Knew how to deal with the OTL US in the OTL circumstances yes, it's been 27 years since the POD for little differences to start adding up

I'm going to spoiler and say the US ends up on his side. Note there is a great deal of difference between the begrudging cobelligerent who while fight the same enemies but whose relationship with you is purely transactional and the best friend who will sacrifice anything for you, but both are still on your side
 
Knew how to deal with the OTL US in the OTL circumstances yes, it's been 27 years since the POD for little differences to start adding up

I'm going to spoiler and say the US ends up on his side. Note there is a great deal of difference between the begrudging cobelligerent who while fight the same enemies but whose relationship with you is purely transactional and the best friend who will sacrifice anything for you, but both are still on your side
I mean yeah I know there's differences, I just think you're underestimating what Churchill would do to get the US on his side.
 
I mean yeah I know there's differences, I just think you're underestimating what Churchill would do to get the US on his side.
I don't think I am. I think you are overestimating what Churchill will do once the US is already on his side to move the needle from begrudging to best friend

Edit: There's also the fact that what you think someone wants to hear and what they actually want to hear can be completely different things, so an attempt to improve relations can make things worse
 
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I would like to point out that the food blockade as a war crime only happened AFTER WW2 ended. During WW2 it was perfectly legal.
So starving people was legal?
As for the other issues I would like to point out the articles about the election stuff straight up say the US government didn't know anything about it.
Yet the targeted candidates complained about it. Perhaps the Feds didn't want to know.
Also I'm like 90% certain most of it was debunked anyway. Also the assassinations on US soil I know are a conspiracy theory.
Apparently Intrepid put this stuff in his book 🤷‍♂️
 
I don't think I am. I think you are overestimating what Churchill will do once the US is already on his side to move the needle from begrudging to best friend

Edit: There's also the fact that what you think someone wants to hear and what they actually want to hear can be completely different things, so an attempt to improve relations can make things worse
Ok I think I see what's going on. I was talking about Churchill doing what it takes to get the US to join as well. Not after they join the war.

So starving people was legal?

Yet the targeted candidates complained about it. Perhaps the Feds didn't want to know.

Apparently Intrepid put this stuff in his book 🤷‍♂️
1: In times of war during the era yes. It wasn't made a war crime till 1977.

2: Who is this intrepid you keep mentioning? Because every time I search that up all I get is books about either the USS Intrepid or a biography of FDR.
 
Ok I think I see what's going on. I was talking about Churchill doing what it takes to get the US to join as well. Not after they join the war.


1: In times of war during the era yes. It wasn't made a war crime till 1977.

2: Who is this intrepid you keep mentioning? Because every time I search that up all I get is books about either the USS Intrepid or a biography of FDR.
William Stephenson
Britannica - William Stephenson


The Canadian who was the real life James Bond

41IOazL-rUL.jpg


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Intrepid's Last Case chronicles the post-World War II activities of Sir William Stephenson, whose fascinating role in helping to defeat the Nazis was the subject of the worldwide bestseller A Man Called Intrepid. Sir William Stephenson (Intrepid) still stood at the center of events when he and author William Stevenson discussed in the 1980s an investigation into sudden allegations that Intrepid's wartime aide, Dick Ellis, had been both a Soviet mole and a Nazi spy. They concluded that the rumors grew, ironically, from Intrepid's last wartime case involving the first major Soviet intelligence defector of the new atomic age: Igor Gouzenko. Intrepid saved Gouzenko and found him sanctuary inside a Canadian spy school. Gouzenko was about to make more devastating disclosures than those concerning atomic espionage when the case was mysteriously terminated and Intrepid's organization dissolved. Unraveling the implications of Gouzenko's defection and Intrepid's removal from the case, tracing the steps of Dick Ellis and disclosing much new information regarding United States and Canadian postwar intelligence activities, Intrepid's Last Case is a story that for sheer excitement rivals the best spy fiction--and is all the more important because every word is true. Filled with never-before-revealed facts on the Soviet/Western nuclear war dance and a compelling portrayal of the mind of a professional spy, Intrepid's Last Case picks up where the first book ended, at the very roots of the cold war. It describes one of the most widespread cover-ups and bizarre betrayals in intelligence history. This is the incredible Intrepid against the KGB.
 
William Stephenson
Britannica - William Stephenson


The Canadian who was the real life James Bond

41IOazL-rUL.jpg


81qWX-+FvDL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg

Intrepid's Last Case chronicles the post-World War II activities of Sir William Stephenson, whose fascinating role in helping to defeat the Nazis was the subject of the worldwide bestseller A Man Called Intrepid. Sir William Stephenson (Intrepid) still stood at the center of events when he and author William Stevenson discussed in the 1980s an investigation into sudden allegations that Intrepid's wartime aide, Dick Ellis, had been both a Soviet mole and a Nazi spy. They concluded that the rumors grew, ironically, from Intrepid's last wartime case involving the first major Soviet intelligence defector of the new atomic age: Igor Gouzenko. Intrepid saved Gouzenko and found him sanctuary inside a Canadian spy school. Gouzenko was about to make more devastating disclosures than those concerning atomic espionage when the case was mysteriously terminated and Intrepid's organization dissolved. Unraveling the implications of Gouzenko's defection and Intrepid's removal from the case, tracing the steps of Dick Ellis and disclosing much new information regarding United States and Canadian postwar intelligence activities, Intrepid's Last Case is a story that for sheer excitement rivals the best spy fiction--and is all the more important because every word is true. Filled with never-before-revealed facts on the Soviet/Western nuclear war dance and a compelling portrayal of the mind of a professional spy, Intrepid's Last Case picks up where the first book ended, at the very roots of the cold war. It describes one of the most widespread cover-ups and bizarre betrayals in intelligence history. This is the incredible Intrepid against the KGB.
So after looking it up over the last hour a lot of historians that cover this seem to dispute a lot of the stuff William Stephenson claimed as fact. In fact most other books on the subject seem to take umbrage with at least some part of the book so pardon me if I'm going to take a lot of those claims as likely false
 
The line of Churchill "dictating to the Commonwealths" to me sounds the most ominous. Perhaps a WWII Gallipoli equivalent with a lot of dead Canadians? Or Japan somehow actually invades Australia after Churchill has the Aussies move most of their soldiers to Europe or Africa.
 
The line of Churchill "dictating to the Commonwealths" to me sounds the most ominous. Perhaps a WWII Gallipoli equivalent with a lot of dead Canadians? Or Japan somehow actually invades Australia after Churchill has the Aussies move most of their soldiers to Europe or Africa.
Japan invading Australia is basically ASB, a WW2 Gallipoli on the other hand sounds plausible but where exactly would it happen? It would need to happen before the US joins unless that's part of the grumpy co-belligerent Ramscoop was talking about. Maybe TTLs equivalent of a 43 invasion of France or the US does D-Day alone while Churchill goes for the Balkans?
 
Japan invading Australia is basically ASB, a WW2 Gallipoli on the other hand sounds plausible but where exactly would it happen? It would need to happen before the US joins unless that's part of the grumpy co-belligerent Ramscoop was talking about. Maybe TTLs equivalent of a 43 invasion of France or the US does D-Day alone while Churchill goes for the Balkans?
Maybe he tries even harder to get the Americans to invade and retake portions of the British Empire that were lost during the war. Which in OTL America wasn't really that keen on. Or some of his weirder Balkan ideas.
 

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Japan invading Australia is basically ASB, a WW2 Gallipoli on the other hand sounds plausible but where exactly would it happen? It would need to happen before the US joins unless that's part of the grumpy co-belligerent Ramscoop was talking about. Maybe TTLs equivalent of a 43 invasion of France or the US does D-Day alone while Churchill goes for the Balkans?
Australia is pretty big though and wasn't that built up especially in the North. I thought that in our WW2, Japan could have taken Darwin in '41 or early '42 and lost it the moment the Australians managed to drive there but that's it. And that's why they focused on cutting Australia off which is where we got the Coral Sea and Guadalcanal. However if Japan actually focused on taking Darwin that would likely stop other battles and award Japan nothing so it would be Japan's Stalingrad. It could very easily end up in some good soldiers cut off and surrounded.
 
Australia is pretty big though and wasn't that built up especially in the North. I thought that in our WW2, Japan could have taken Darwin in '41 or early '42 and lost it the moment the Australians managed to drive there but that's it. And that's why they focused on cutting Australia off which is where we got the Coral Sea and Guadalcanal. However if Japan actually focused on taking Darwin that would likely stop other battles and award Japan nothing so it would be Japan's Stalingrad. It could very easily end up in some good soldiers cut off and surrounded.
Your logic is sound but the grimdark setting of IJA soldiers dying in the sands of North Australia cut off from resupply and communications as their units are shattered by the Allied routing of whatver ridiculous invasion that may plausibly be launched is something I'd believe our author would do..... I don't think he is  going to do it but that he could do it plausibly and with his lovely style if he wanted to c:
 
Japan attacking this timelines Australia would be overly complicated for dubious gain and a logistical nightmare with Japan's historic supply issues. So give it a 30% chance.
My original point is that Churchill does "something" that makes the Commonwealth Nations sour on the UK. That means that like the rest of this timeline things are worse than OTL.
I do wonder how accurate the "future" history blurbs are. Even if they are not deliberately slanted to avoid the Bureau of Patriotism or whatever from sending you to a work camp in the Yukon it's human nature to see things as how they ended up as inevitable. Churchill being less flexible while the US being less flexible might cause major changes and if as seems to be hinted the UK gets walloped in WWIII then "Canada always loved the US the mostest" might be more popular in history books if simplified especially if the market is the US.
 
The IJA IOTL calculated that invading Australia (which, from recent experience in China, they believed was likely to extend over the whole country) would have required 12 divisions and 1.5 million tons of shipping. So yeah, very unlikely that such an invasion happens.
 
The IJA IOTL calculated that invading Australia (which, from recent experience in China, they believed was likely to extend over the whole country) would have required 12 divisions and 1.5 million tons of shipping. So yeah, very unlikely that such an invasion happens.
"Fuck it, we ball." -Some IJA general, probably.
"Logistics is for pussies." -Some IJN admiral, probably.

In OTL both branches frequently dismissed all that boring and useless shit.
 
"Fuck it, we ball." -Some IJA general, probably.
"Logistics is for pussies." -Some IJN admiral, probably.

In OTL both branches frequently dismissed all that boring and useless shit.
The Army didn't have 12 divisions to spare. They'd have to pull out of Burma or part of China.

They also don't have the ships to move the troops.
 
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