The idea of police attempting to arrest their invaders is hilarious. Now I'm imagining some obstreperous cop handing out parking tickets to German panzers.
Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars
- Thread starter RamscoopRaider
- Start date
It would be even funnier if that 30 minutes proved key in "blunting the sickle," but the way things are unfolding, with 7(!) panzer divisions going through the Ardennes with apparently sufficient logistical support, it looks like the Allies will be handed an even worse defeat.
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We know it's dumb, and worse than dumb is a horrifyingly consequential mistake, but traitor?
He's "betraying" the "friends" who - let's recall - built a giant defensive line calculated to force Germany to fight the next war in Belgium. And he's doing so hoping to minimize harm to his people, which is quite frankly his actual responsibility.
Part 6-34 Fall of Europe, Eve of War: Turkey
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…On the morning of the 12th the Germans continued their advance into the Netherlands. The single Panzer division assigned to the Netherlands, the 10th, reached the Grebbe line at the city of Rhenen by mid-morning and attempted to take the fortifications off the march after quickly overrunning the forward outposts. Rhenen was a weak point in the line where the modest Grebbeberg hill prevented easy inundation and the extensive works that would have allowed the flooding of the position were still incomplete. It was thus one of the few areas of dry land that the Germans could attack over.
Despite the general lack of training and organization by the Dutch the defenders of Rhenen proved able to deal with the initial assaults. The 10th Panzer solely had Mark III and IV’s, without the armor to deal with Dutch AT rifles let alone AT guns, or the guns to actually hurt Dutch fieldworks. Without heavier Panzers, or assault guns, the Germans were unable to suppress the Dutch fieldworks until their towed guns arrived, by which point the 10th had taken severe losses to its infantry component.
The arrival of a VKV motorized regiment allowed the resumption of the attack in midafternoon but by this point the Dutch had been reinforced and the attack failed. In late afternoon an infantry division arrived and the Germans attacked once more, performing better but still stymied by the Dutch defenses. Similar results occurred at the other weak point of the Grebbe line near the city of Amersfoort and the other end of the Utrecht hills, where a VKV motorized regiment and an infantry division also failed to break through in the late afternoon.
During the night of the 12th into the 13th more German infantry and artillery moved up, while the Dutch artillery launched surprisingly heavy attacks on German staging areas…
…In the areas north and south of the Grebbe line the Germans continued to advance westward through the Netherlands on the 12th, stymied more by logistics than other factors. In the south the Germans reached as far as Breda by nightfall on the 12th, in the north as far as Drachten…
…The Dutch attempted to reduce the German pocket at the Ypenburg airport on the 12th with large scale counter attacks. Constant German air attacks from dive bombers disrupted these attempts and mostly suppressed the Dutch artillery. The Dutch were able to keep the Germans from getting reinforcements and supplies flown in, but they could not stop supply paradrops or significantly degrade the German fieldworks around the airport.
Similar attempts to reduce the German pocket at Rotterdam also failed thanks to large scale German air support nullifying the Dutch artillery…
…On the night of the 11th into the 12th the Germans hastily threw up bridges over the Albert Canal to replace those that had been destroyed by the Belgians, something that was made vastly easier by the lack of Belgian resistance. Recon forces crossed several hours before dawn, with combat forces following around sunrise.
Encounters with French advance screening forces took place just after sunrise and the French stopped the German recon units cold. With the advantage in numbers and equipment the French were easily able to manhandle their German counterparts, only a lack of aggression prevented them from throwing them back to the Albert Canal. Instead the French merely held a line about two thirds the distance from their line on the Dyle and punished all German attempts to break through.
Around noon heavier German forces arrived and as per the plan the French began a fighting retreat to positions about a third of the way between the Dyle and Albert Canals. French and German tanks clashed on a 50 mile front and in general the French got the better of things. The superior armor and firepower of most French vehicles, aided by dug in anti-tank guns, allowed them to reap a dreadful toll on the German Panzers while long ranged artillery barrages hindered German infantry support. German airpower attempted to compensate but against the small dispersed French formations was less effective than expected.
The French however continued to withdraw and cede the battlefields to the Germans, despite their success. They were notably lacking in infantry, which would be a major problem if things became a set piece slugging match and notably had orders to minimize their risk. They were simply to buy time for the Franco-British infantry to arrive on the Dyle line and dig in, something that was repeatedly emphasized by French high command. By nightfall the French had withdrawn to their planned line for the next day of battle, resulting in a pause in the fighting.
The Germans spent the night resting while French and British troops, afraid of German airpower, moved up during the cover of darkness, beginning to take positions on the Dyle River. Both sides knew fighting would resume on the next day, but the French were confident that they could repeat the day’s performance. The Germans however had noticed a failure in the French operations and were planning to exploit it…
…German forces continued to move through the Ardennes on the 12th, encountering French screening forces during the morning. Heavily outnumbered, and under orders to move north and join the battle in Belgium as soon as practical the French mechanized cavalry fought a few delaying actions against the advancing Germans but avoided being decisively engaged. They did report that substantial German forces were moving through the Ardennes.
French high command responded by ordering reinforcements to the Meuse river at around 5:00pm on the 12th. The French high command in general, and General Gamelin in particular, believed that while a potential danger the Meuse was not critical. Yes it was the hinge on which two French army groups were joined, but it was already garrisoned by a group of third line infantry divisions. A relatively limited push lacking in heavy artillery would not be able to break the line before reinforcements arrived on the 15th and the Germans certainly could not get heavy artillery through the Ardennes in any timely manner…
…In Antwerp there was an enormous row between the king and government over the deployment of the Belgian Army. The government was insistent that the King order the army to join the French in expelling the Germans form Belgium. The King, in his role as commander of the Army, refused. The Army was in no position to fight the Germans in a mobile battle he said and that it was better for the army to remain a threat in being that could be used as a lever to restore Belgian neutrality after the conclusion of the present campaign.
If Belgium joined the Anglo-French, then even if they stopped the Germans, something by no means guaranteed even with Belgian aid, the Germans would still occupy parts of Belgium and Luftwaffe would still own the skies and be free to bomb the country at will. By contrast even if the Germans won, the threat of 22 divisions was a powerful tool that could be used to restore at least partial neutrality, possibly full neutrality if the Germans had sufficiently unhinged the Maginot line. Even allowing Anglo-French forces to pass through their lines at Antwerp could potentially jeopardize such a restoration of neutrality…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005
Despite the general lack of training and organization by the Dutch the defenders of Rhenen proved able to deal with the initial assaults. The 10th Panzer solely had Mark III and IV’s, without the armor to deal with Dutch AT rifles let alone AT guns, or the guns to actually hurt Dutch fieldworks. Without heavier Panzers, or assault guns, the Germans were unable to suppress the Dutch fieldworks until their towed guns arrived, by which point the 10th had taken severe losses to its infantry component.
The arrival of a VKV motorized regiment allowed the resumption of the attack in midafternoon but by this point the Dutch had been reinforced and the attack failed. In late afternoon an infantry division arrived and the Germans attacked once more, performing better but still stymied by the Dutch defenses. Similar results occurred at the other weak point of the Grebbe line near the city of Amersfoort and the other end of the Utrecht hills, where a VKV motorized regiment and an infantry division also failed to break through in the late afternoon.
During the night of the 12th into the 13th more German infantry and artillery moved up, while the Dutch artillery launched surprisingly heavy attacks on German staging areas…
…In the areas north and south of the Grebbe line the Germans continued to advance westward through the Netherlands on the 12th, stymied more by logistics than other factors. In the south the Germans reached as far as Breda by nightfall on the 12th, in the north as far as Drachten…
…The Dutch attempted to reduce the German pocket at the Ypenburg airport on the 12th with large scale counter attacks. Constant German air attacks from dive bombers disrupted these attempts and mostly suppressed the Dutch artillery. The Dutch were able to keep the Germans from getting reinforcements and supplies flown in, but they could not stop supply paradrops or significantly degrade the German fieldworks around the airport.
Similar attempts to reduce the German pocket at Rotterdam also failed thanks to large scale German air support nullifying the Dutch artillery…
…On the night of the 11th into the 12th the Germans hastily threw up bridges over the Albert Canal to replace those that had been destroyed by the Belgians, something that was made vastly easier by the lack of Belgian resistance. Recon forces crossed several hours before dawn, with combat forces following around sunrise.
Encounters with French advance screening forces took place just after sunrise and the French stopped the German recon units cold. With the advantage in numbers and equipment the French were easily able to manhandle their German counterparts, only a lack of aggression prevented them from throwing them back to the Albert Canal. Instead the French merely held a line about two thirds the distance from their line on the Dyle and punished all German attempts to break through.
Around noon heavier German forces arrived and as per the plan the French began a fighting retreat to positions about a third of the way between the Dyle and Albert Canals. French and German tanks clashed on a 50 mile front and in general the French got the better of things. The superior armor and firepower of most French vehicles, aided by dug in anti-tank guns, allowed them to reap a dreadful toll on the German Panzers while long ranged artillery barrages hindered German infantry support. German airpower attempted to compensate but against the small dispersed French formations was less effective than expected.
The French however continued to withdraw and cede the battlefields to the Germans, despite their success. They were notably lacking in infantry, which would be a major problem if things became a set piece slugging match and notably had orders to minimize their risk. They were simply to buy time for the Franco-British infantry to arrive on the Dyle line and dig in, something that was repeatedly emphasized by French high command. By nightfall the French had withdrawn to their planned line for the next day of battle, resulting in a pause in the fighting.
The Germans spent the night resting while French and British troops, afraid of German airpower, moved up during the cover of darkness, beginning to take positions on the Dyle River. Both sides knew fighting would resume on the next day, but the French were confident that they could repeat the day’s performance. The Germans however had noticed a failure in the French operations and were planning to exploit it…
…German forces continued to move through the Ardennes on the 12th, encountering French screening forces during the morning. Heavily outnumbered, and under orders to move north and join the battle in Belgium as soon as practical the French mechanized cavalry fought a few delaying actions against the advancing Germans but avoided being decisively engaged. They did report that substantial German forces were moving through the Ardennes.
French high command responded by ordering reinforcements to the Meuse river at around 5:00pm on the 12th. The French high command in general, and General Gamelin in particular, believed that while a potential danger the Meuse was not critical. Yes it was the hinge on which two French army groups were joined, but it was already garrisoned by a group of third line infantry divisions. A relatively limited push lacking in heavy artillery would not be able to break the line before reinforcements arrived on the 15th and the Germans certainly could not get heavy artillery through the Ardennes in any timely manner…
…In Antwerp there was an enormous row between the king and government over the deployment of the Belgian Army. The government was insistent that the King order the army to join the French in expelling the Germans form Belgium. The King, in his role as commander of the Army, refused. The Army was in no position to fight the Germans in a mobile battle he said and that it was better for the army to remain a threat in being that could be used as a lever to restore Belgian neutrality after the conclusion of the present campaign.
If Belgium joined the Anglo-French, then even if they stopped the Germans, something by no means guaranteed even with Belgian aid, the Germans would still occupy parts of Belgium and Luftwaffe would still own the skies and be free to bomb the country at will. By contrast even if the Germans won, the threat of 22 divisions was a powerful tool that could be used to restore at least partial neutrality, possibly full neutrality if the Germans had sufficiently unhinged the Maginot line. Even allowing Anglo-French forces to pass through their lines at Antwerp could potentially jeopardize such a restoration of neutrality…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005
The Ottoman Empire
Basics:
The Ottoman Empire is nominally a constitutional monarchy under the House of Osman, more practically a military dictatorship. The official government is not in control of anything more than Ankara and the Free City of Constantinople, which remains nominally a part of the Empire, with the remainder under the control of the preacher Hasim Demir. The Ottoman Empire was a central power and lost most of its territory in WWI.
Economy:
The Ottoman Economy is after losses in WWI and heavy restrictions almost completely an agricultural one. There is a certain amount of trade and mining, however this has declined significantly since WWI.
Land Forces:
The Ottoman Empire nominally has an army of 60,000 men in 4 infantry and 1 cavalry division, though in practice it only has 30,000 due to corruption and lack of loyalty. The shadow government of Hasim Demir has a militia of 200,000 modeled on the Saudi Ikhwan
The standard Ottoman Infantry rifle is the Mauser 1903, an export version of the Gewehr 98, in 7.92x57mm. Older Model 1903 in 7.65x53mm Argentine Mauser are in reserve, as are older Model 1890 in the same cartridge and Mauser 1887 in 7.65x53mm and 9.5x60mm black powder. The Demir’s militia uses all of these and various older weapons including large numbers Martini Henries in 11.43x55mm, or 7.65x53mm, and Henry Rifles in .44 Henry, muzzle loading Jezails and any weapon they can get their hands on.
The standard Ottoman sidearm is the FN model 1903 in 9x20mm Browning, with some Mauser C96 in 7.63x25mm remaining. The Ottomans are forbidden by treaty to possess submachine guns. Demir’s militia uses these pistols, older Mauser C78 zig zag revolvers and any pistol or submachine guns they can get their hands on.
The standard machine gun is the MG08 in 7.92x57mm, with some in 7.65x53mm, of which the Ottomans possess 1000 total. They are forbidden light machine guns by treaty. Demir’s militiauses these, Schwarzlose in 7.92x57mm and a diverse variety of machine guns, with the most numerous light model being the Lewis in .30 British followed by the Chauchat in 8mm Lebel.
The artillery of the Ottoman Empire consists of 90 Granatenwerfer 16, 90 Krupp 7.5cm model 1903 and 45 7.5cm Gebrigskanone 06. The first is a heavy clumsy spigot mortar with short range, firing a 3.5 pound bomb 500 yards. The second is a standard unmodernized pre WWI era field gun, the latter a short range direct firing mountain gun.
Demir has some older artillery, mainly black powder Krupp guns hidden from the entente, even older muzzle loaders and light mortars and artillery pieces bought from the black market or salvaged off battlefields.
The Ottomans are forbidden tanks and armored cars by treaty. Demir’s militia has around a dozen improvised armored cars armed with machine guns.
The Ottoman Army is unmotorized, with no plans for motorization. Demir’s forces are non-motorized but make heavy use of horses mules and camels to compensate.
Naval Forces:
The Ottoman Navy is heavily restricted, being allowed only 9 torpedo boats and 9 gunboats.
Due to lack of funds the Ottoman Empire instead operates 18 patrol boats of less than 80 tons, armed with at most a 65mm gun, more often a 57mm, 47mm, 37mm or just machine guns.
The Ottomans lack Naval infantry or Naval aviation.
Demir operates some armed fishing boats with machine guns, mortars and a handful of 37mm guns.
Air Forces:
The Ottoman Empire is legally barred from having an air arm and completely lacks aircraft.
Demir operates a handful of unarmed crop dusters for recon and dropping hand grenades in the style of the early first world war
Weapons of Mass Destruction:
The Ottoman Empire lacks nuclear, biological or chemical weapons programs
Problems:
The Ottoman government has effectively lost control over the country to a theocratic insurgency
Large parts of the country are occupied by other powers or under League of Nations mandates
The Ottoman Empire has territorial disputes with all of its neighbors
The Ottoman Empire is unindustrialized and damaged by civil War
The Ottoman Empire is next to the USSR
-The Eve of War, the World on October 1st 1940, Eagle Press, Philadelphia, 2001
Basics:
The Ottoman Empire is nominally a constitutional monarchy under the House of Osman, more practically a military dictatorship. The official government is not in control of anything more than Ankara and the Free City of Constantinople, which remains nominally a part of the Empire, with the remainder under the control of the preacher Hasim Demir. The Ottoman Empire was a central power and lost most of its territory in WWI.
Economy:
The Ottoman Economy is after losses in WWI and heavy restrictions almost completely an agricultural one. There is a certain amount of trade and mining, however this has declined significantly since WWI.
Land Forces:
The Ottoman Empire nominally has an army of 60,000 men in 4 infantry and 1 cavalry division, though in practice it only has 30,000 due to corruption and lack of loyalty. The shadow government of Hasim Demir has a militia of 200,000 modeled on the Saudi Ikhwan
The standard Ottoman Infantry rifle is the Mauser 1903, an export version of the Gewehr 98, in 7.92x57mm. Older Model 1903 in 7.65x53mm Argentine Mauser are in reserve, as are older Model 1890 in the same cartridge and Mauser 1887 in 7.65x53mm and 9.5x60mm black powder. The Demir’s militia uses all of these and various older weapons including large numbers Martini Henries in 11.43x55mm, or 7.65x53mm, and Henry Rifles in .44 Henry, muzzle loading Jezails and any weapon they can get their hands on.
The standard Ottoman sidearm is the FN model 1903 in 9x20mm Browning, with some Mauser C96 in 7.63x25mm remaining. The Ottomans are forbidden by treaty to possess submachine guns. Demir’s militia uses these pistols, older Mauser C78 zig zag revolvers and any pistol or submachine guns they can get their hands on.
The standard machine gun is the MG08 in 7.92x57mm, with some in 7.65x53mm, of which the Ottomans possess 1000 total. They are forbidden light machine guns by treaty. Demir’s militiauses these, Schwarzlose in 7.92x57mm and a diverse variety of machine guns, with the most numerous light model being the Lewis in .30 British followed by the Chauchat in 8mm Lebel.
The artillery of the Ottoman Empire consists of 90 Granatenwerfer 16, 90 Krupp 7.5cm model 1903 and 45 7.5cm Gebrigskanone 06. The first is a heavy clumsy spigot mortar with short range, firing a 3.5 pound bomb 500 yards. The second is a standard unmodernized pre WWI era field gun, the latter a short range direct firing mountain gun.
Demir has some older artillery, mainly black powder Krupp guns hidden from the entente, even older muzzle loaders and light mortars and artillery pieces bought from the black market or salvaged off battlefields.
The Ottomans are forbidden tanks and armored cars by treaty. Demir’s militia has around a dozen improvised armored cars armed with machine guns.
The Ottoman Army is unmotorized, with no plans for motorization. Demir’s forces are non-motorized but make heavy use of horses mules and camels to compensate.
Naval Forces:
The Ottoman Navy is heavily restricted, being allowed only 9 torpedo boats and 9 gunboats.
Due to lack of funds the Ottoman Empire instead operates 18 patrol boats of less than 80 tons, armed with at most a 65mm gun, more often a 57mm, 47mm, 37mm or just machine guns.
The Ottomans lack Naval infantry or Naval aviation.
Demir operates some armed fishing boats with machine guns, mortars and a handful of 37mm guns.
Air Forces:
The Ottoman Empire is legally barred from having an air arm and completely lacks aircraft.
Demir operates a handful of unarmed crop dusters for recon and dropping hand grenades in the style of the early first world war
Weapons of Mass Destruction:
The Ottoman Empire lacks nuclear, biological or chemical weapons programs
Problems:
The Ottoman government has effectively lost control over the country to a theocratic insurgency
Large parts of the country are occupied by other powers or under League of Nations mandates
The Ottoman Empire has territorial disputes with all of its neighbors
The Ottoman Empire is unindustrialized and damaged by civil War
The Ottoman Empire is next to the USSR
-The Eve of War, the World on October 1st 1940, Eagle Press, Philadelphia, 2001
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Oh wow I'd forgotten the situation in Turkey, will they be joining in with the German side eventually?
Is the situation in the Levant, Iraq, Arabia etc. similar to OTL 1940?
Is the situation in the Levant, Iraq, Arabia etc. similar to OTL 1940?
Oh wow I totally forgot the Ottoman Empire was restored after Ataturk got killed. Did they lose Kurdistan to the French or was the partial Megali Ideal their only loss? Compared to Lost Monkeys and Broken Vehicles, this rump Turkey got savaged MUCH worse after losing to Greece. It looks like an utter wreck, reduced to a third world failed state.
"threw up".
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Broadly
Less savaged by losing to Greece, more savaged during WWI and not really being able to recover due to the subsequent losses. Kurdistan is a French SOI, basically still officially part of the Ottoman Empire (the plebiscites that were supposed to happen got cancelled in the mess that was the Turkish revolt) but the French essentially run it. Turkey also lost Wilsonian Armenia, which is an SSR
Fixed
Is the Belgian king being absolutely dumb, or is he a German sympathiser? Am I alone in wondering that?
I mean TBF he kinda has a point with his plan seeing as his goal looks to be keeping Belgium as minimally damaged and it makes some sense strategically. If he holds back the army, France stops the Germans and they can't break through the Maginot. He's in a great position to come down on the German flanks and potentially cut off all German forces in France.
Meanwhile if the opposite events occur Belgium is still theoretically in a great position. An undamaged army of that size is a good threat and using it to get the Germans to leave their soil peacefully makes sense. I can easily see him believing it would work, especially in this scenario where Maginot would be broken through.
Given hindsight, what we know will happen so far, the fact it is Hitler here and such however we also know how bad a fucking idea this actually is.
So that seems to imply that the USSR is controlling the full extent of Wilsonian Armenia? What Armenia borders do you mean here?
Future generations will damn the King of Belgium in his grave.
Anyway, what’s happening in Finland?
Anyway, what’s happening in Finland?
Yeah but again that's with hindsight, in the present of the story as I pointed out his idea does have some merit and strategy behind it. Especially if your goal is to not have your country be utterly devastated by a 2nd world war less than 20 years after it was by the 1st.
I just had a horrible thought. There have to be elements of the Belgian far right who are agitating for Belgium to join the Axis, probably in exchange for territorial concessions from France and/or the Netherlands. If tensions between the King and Parliament continue to degrade, might the King turn to them?
Belgium is actively being invaded and Belgian military assets are being targeted. Belgium is stuck in the Allied camp now, it simply hinges on how much they’re willing to commit.
And if the last few updates have been any indication, the answer is "Not very much."
Part 6-35 Fall of Europe, Eve of War: Thailand
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…On the 13th the Germans attacked the Grebbe line in earnest. Near Rhenen and Amersfoort they stormed the frontline defenses by midmorning thanks to heavy air support from dive bombers. The Dutch did not want to have to fall back on their final line so quickly and vigorously counterattacked and retook most of the defenses by noon.
This however proved to be a mistake as the counterattacks cost them severely in both manpower and disorganization. The last proved more critical as units were out of position and commanders had an unclear view of the situation. When the Germans resumed their offensive in the afternoon at Rhenen they were easily able to take advantage of the situation to push the Dutch back to their final defense line and take portions of it. The Dutch were able to contain the breakthroughs, but at a heavy cost and it was clear that they would be hard pressed against any further attacks.
At Amersfoort the Germans were even more successful in their early afternoon offensive, with a full VKV regiment being able to penetrate the Dutch lines almost unopposed thanks to an accidental gap created by the counterattacks. German forces took advantage of the gap to begin rolling up the rest of the fortifications from the rear and the Dutch position collapsed by 2:45.
At 4:15 PM General Winkelman ordered a full withdraw to the Waterline, to be carried out immediately, judging the risk of air attack less than being cut off by the German breakout from Amersfoort. Dutch forces immediately began falling back in a chaotic retreat, harassed by German airpower and recon forces, with only nightfall preventing a total rout from occurring…
…By nightfall on the 13th the Germans had reached Dordrecht in the south, relieving the commandoes at the bridges there. Combined with the failure of the Dutch to reduce the German paratroopers at Rotterdam this meant that the Waterline was no longer a viable defense, as the Germans would be able to bypass it through Rotterdam the next day. The only hope of preventing this would be to fight street to street, house to house in Rotterdam, leveling the city to buy time.
Under a mandate from Queen Wilhelmina and the government to minimize suffering and with the situation hopeless General Winkelman made the decision to surrender the Army just before midnight, save those troops in Zeeland which were in contact with the French. To buy time he would fight until noon and then ask for a ceasefire to negotiate the surrender in order to provide the maximum time to evacuate…
…On the 13th the Germans attacked the French armored screen east of the Dyle River. General Von Bock had noticed that the French armor operated dispersed and with poor coordination, not as a fluid mass. He thus positioned three of his four available Panzer divisions to tie down the French with skirmishing. This left the fourth free to concentrate into a solid force and attack the French as a concerted unit.
Shortly after Dawn the 11th Panzer attacked elements of the French 2nd Armored near the town of Diest and routed them, a full division crushing a battalion. The division split in two and moved north and south, attacking the dispersed French with a force ratio at the point of contact of greater than 3 to 1 and heavy air support. With a shortage of radios and a sluggish command structure the French proved incapable of concentrating and despite an overall armor advantage of better than 3:2 on the Dyle front were forced back with heavy losses.
By nightfall the French had retreated back to the Dyle line, having lost almost 200 tanks, as opposed to 50 on the German side. They had however prevented the Germans from reaching the line until after nightfall and bought another day for more units to get into position despite the refugees clogging the roads and rails and for fieldworks to be strengthened. By the night of the 13th the Dyle line was prepared to face a German assault…
…On the 13th the Belgian cabinet began moving against King Leopold. With Prime Minister Van Zeeland avoiding conflict this fell to Health Minister Maracel-Henri Jaspar and Colonial Minister Albert de Vleeschauwer. The two minister put forward a plan to declare the King mentally incapacitated and to force a temporary regency, something that would allow command of the Army to devolve to the defense minister. The Army would then be able to join the Anglo-French in expelling the Germans from Belgium.
By the end of the day the cabinet was convinced to either support the matter, or simply not to oppose it. The next matter was to sound out the army and see if they would support such a procedural coup…
…On the 13th as French screening forces withdrew north into Belgium German forces continued to advance on the Meuse. By afternoon the leading elements began to reach the river and when night fell the Germans had forces along a stretch of river over 50 miles long from Dinant in Belgium to Sedan in France.
Across the river were a number of dug in French infantry divisions in a 4 mile deep belt of fortifications. While the divisions were low quality B class units and the fortifications were incomplete and lacking completely in mines the French positions were still strong and the first reinforcing division had already arrived with more to come.
For the German plan to succeed they would need to cross the river at Dinant in Belgium, at Montherme in France further south, and at Sedan southeast of there. Three bridgeheads were needed so that each of the German armies involved in the Sickle Cut had a line of supply. If any failed the whole operation would collapse…
…Gamelin and the French high command received word of the German arrival on the Meuse on the night of the 13th but were unconcerned. Their forces in the area had superiority in both artillery and numbers they thought. Any German river crossing attempt would be a costly failure until they had time to bring up large quantities of reinforcements and heavy artillery, by which point the battle in Belgium would have reached its decisive point and a flood of reinforcements would be available.
Gamelin and his staff were significantly more worried about a potential flanking maneuver through the Rhine Valley in Switzerland…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005
This however proved to be a mistake as the counterattacks cost them severely in both manpower and disorganization. The last proved more critical as units were out of position and commanders had an unclear view of the situation. When the Germans resumed their offensive in the afternoon at Rhenen they were easily able to take advantage of the situation to push the Dutch back to their final defense line and take portions of it. The Dutch were able to contain the breakthroughs, but at a heavy cost and it was clear that they would be hard pressed against any further attacks.
At Amersfoort the Germans were even more successful in their early afternoon offensive, with a full VKV regiment being able to penetrate the Dutch lines almost unopposed thanks to an accidental gap created by the counterattacks. German forces took advantage of the gap to begin rolling up the rest of the fortifications from the rear and the Dutch position collapsed by 2:45.
At 4:15 PM General Winkelman ordered a full withdraw to the Waterline, to be carried out immediately, judging the risk of air attack less than being cut off by the German breakout from Amersfoort. Dutch forces immediately began falling back in a chaotic retreat, harassed by German airpower and recon forces, with only nightfall preventing a total rout from occurring…
…By nightfall on the 13th the Germans had reached Dordrecht in the south, relieving the commandoes at the bridges there. Combined with the failure of the Dutch to reduce the German paratroopers at Rotterdam this meant that the Waterline was no longer a viable defense, as the Germans would be able to bypass it through Rotterdam the next day. The only hope of preventing this would be to fight street to street, house to house in Rotterdam, leveling the city to buy time.
Under a mandate from Queen Wilhelmina and the government to minimize suffering and with the situation hopeless General Winkelman made the decision to surrender the Army just before midnight, save those troops in Zeeland which were in contact with the French. To buy time he would fight until noon and then ask for a ceasefire to negotiate the surrender in order to provide the maximum time to evacuate…
…On the 13th the Germans attacked the French armored screen east of the Dyle River. General Von Bock had noticed that the French armor operated dispersed and with poor coordination, not as a fluid mass. He thus positioned three of his four available Panzer divisions to tie down the French with skirmishing. This left the fourth free to concentrate into a solid force and attack the French as a concerted unit.
Shortly after Dawn the 11th Panzer attacked elements of the French 2nd Armored near the town of Diest and routed them, a full division crushing a battalion. The division split in two and moved north and south, attacking the dispersed French with a force ratio at the point of contact of greater than 3 to 1 and heavy air support. With a shortage of radios and a sluggish command structure the French proved incapable of concentrating and despite an overall armor advantage of better than 3:2 on the Dyle front were forced back with heavy losses.
By nightfall the French had retreated back to the Dyle line, having lost almost 200 tanks, as opposed to 50 on the German side. They had however prevented the Germans from reaching the line until after nightfall and bought another day for more units to get into position despite the refugees clogging the roads and rails and for fieldworks to be strengthened. By the night of the 13th the Dyle line was prepared to face a German assault…
…On the 13th the Belgian cabinet began moving against King Leopold. With Prime Minister Van Zeeland avoiding conflict this fell to Health Minister Maracel-Henri Jaspar and Colonial Minister Albert de Vleeschauwer. The two minister put forward a plan to declare the King mentally incapacitated and to force a temporary regency, something that would allow command of the Army to devolve to the defense minister. The Army would then be able to join the Anglo-French in expelling the Germans from Belgium.
By the end of the day the cabinet was convinced to either support the matter, or simply not to oppose it. The next matter was to sound out the army and see if they would support such a procedural coup…
…On the 13th as French screening forces withdrew north into Belgium German forces continued to advance on the Meuse. By afternoon the leading elements began to reach the river and when night fell the Germans had forces along a stretch of river over 50 miles long from Dinant in Belgium to Sedan in France.
Across the river were a number of dug in French infantry divisions in a 4 mile deep belt of fortifications. While the divisions were low quality B class units and the fortifications were incomplete and lacking completely in mines the French positions were still strong and the first reinforcing division had already arrived with more to come.
For the German plan to succeed they would need to cross the river at Dinant in Belgium, at Montherme in France further south, and at Sedan southeast of there. Three bridgeheads were needed so that each of the German armies involved in the Sickle Cut had a line of supply. If any failed the whole operation would collapse…
…Gamelin and the French high command received word of the German arrival on the Meuse on the night of the 13th but were unconcerned. Their forces in the area had superiority in both artillery and numbers they thought. Any German river crossing attempt would be a costly failure until they had time to bring up large quantities of reinforcements and heavy artillery, by which point the battle in Belgium would have reached its decisive point and a flood of reinforcements would be available.
Gamelin and his staff were significantly more worried about a potential flanking maneuver through the Rhine Valley in Switzerland…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005
The Kingdom of Thailand
Basics:
Thailand is the only southeast Asian country to avoid colonization. It is nominally a constitutional monarchy under the house of Chakri, it is in practice a military dictatorship with King Rama VIII a minor in exile in Switzerland. It was a member of the Entente in WWI and until 1939 was named Siam.
Economy:
Thailand is a primarily export driven agricultural economy, with its main export crop being rice. This is followed by sugar and exotic woods. Thailand has very little industry and is highly dependent on imports, especially of oil.
Land Forces:
Thailand has an active army of 120,000 nominally in 12 divisions and an independent armored brigade.
The standard Thai longarm is the Siamese Mauser, either the type 46/47 and its upgrades based on the Swedish Mauser or the Type 66 that includes features of the Japanese Arisaka. Older rifles are chambered in 8x50mm Siamese Mauser, based on but not interchangeable with 8x50mm Mannlicher, or the newer 8x52mm Siamese Mauser. They are attempting to replace this with the ZH-33, a Czech gas operated semi-Automatic with a detachable magazine, but are having difficulties converting the design to 8x52mm and producing it to the required tolerances.
The standard Thai pistol is the Nambu in 8x22mm. This is supplemented by Luger P08, FN and Astra Models in various calibers. Thailand also uses MP-18 variants in 9mm as submachine guns, primarily for its military police and issued to assault units at need.
The standard Thai machine guns is the Browning M1917 in 8x52mm, used as a heavy machine gun for company levels and higher. As a section machine gun the Madsen in 8x52mm is used, 2 per platoon. Some units have older unconverted 8x50mm models. For AA Vickers guns in .55 Boys are used, something also doubling as AT guns.
For infantry support the Thais issue the Japanese Type 10 smoothbore 50mm Grenade launchers. At the battalion level they have a battery of 90mm Japanese built mortars. For Anti-tank use the Thais have bought a limited number of .55 Boys AT rifles.
As anti-tank weapons in addition to their Vickers guns and Boys Rifles the Thais have a small number of Bofors 37mm/45 AT guns. The AT guns are held under the command of higher headquarters and released to lower formations at need. Some units have the Bofors convertible 47mm/75mm which can fire in direct support or be converted to a 47mm AT gun.
For AA work the Thais use machine guns at the lowest level, either 8mm or new .55 Vickers. For higher level AA they use either British two pounder AA guns, 36 self-propelled on tank chassis, or modern 40mm Bofors. For heavy AA they use 75mm Bofors guns, either 30 caliber Model 1914 or modern 52 caliber pieces, of which they have only a small amount.
For field artillery the Thai standard is the Krupp 75mm Mountain gun, either the Model 1906, the Model 1908 or Japanese copies thereof, or the Bofors 75mm/22 M1928, a modern gun derived from a Krupp design. Thailand is currently trying to standardize on the latter. Thailand is also adopting a Bofors convertible 47mm/75mm infantry gun for directly supporting its infantry units, and a 75mm/40 Bofors gun as a longer ranged alternative for some of its units.
For heavier artillery the Thais use the Bofors 105mm/24. As their heaviest pieces they use the 105mm/42 and 150mm/22, though they have less than 30 of each, all from Bofors.
Thailand has a modest Tank force of 150 vehicles.
10 are WWI era Whippets, 14 tons, 8 mph with 4 machine guns, they are usable only for training.
30 are Vickers 6 ton Mark E, a 22mph escort design with armor against MGs and a two man turret with a 47mm and a machine gun.
12 are Vickers amphibious lights, 2.5 tons, protected against machine gun fire and carrying a machine gun, they make 30 mph on road and 4 in the water.
50 are Japanese Type 95 ha Go, with a low velocity 37mm, 2 machine guns speed of 28 mph and light armor.
50 more are 2 ton tankettes from the UK, capable of 30mph with a fixed machine gun and splinter armor.
Thailand has 12 Armored cars on Morris Truck chassis armed with machine guns.
Thailand has relatively limited motorization with only units attached to higher headquarters and the infantry of the armored brigade fully motorized. Thailand has however standardized on vehicles of the Morris company for its fleet. Thailand does make use of bicycles to somewhat compensate for this.
Naval Forces:
Thailand has a relatively small coastal defense navy.
The most powerful ships are the Coastal Defense Vessels Thonburi and Sri Ayudha. Japanese built they are 2300 tons, unseaworthy, lightly protected against 6” shellfire and capable of 15.5 knots on diesels. They have four20cm/50 in twin turrets fore and aft and 4 single 76mm/40, with 4 40mm Bofors and 8 machine guns as AA.
Under construction are the 6000 ton cruisers Taksin and Naresuan, being built in Italy. They will make 31 knots, have protection against 6” shellfire and carry two float planes when completed in 1943. They are armed with 3 twin 6”/53 bofors guns, two aft superimposed and 1 fore, with 6 76mm/40, 4 40mm Bofors, 6 20mm Madsen and 2 triple 533mm torpedo tubes.
In service are the sloops Tachin and Maekong, 1400 ton Japanese built 17 knot vessels. They have 4 120mm/45 in single centerline low angle mounts, 4 20mm Madsen guns and 2 twin 457mm Torpedo tubes, with capacity for a float plane and 20 mines.
Thailand has two British built 1000 ton gunboats, the Rukhodaya and Ratankosindra. 12 knot vessels they are armored against destroyer type weapons but short ranged. They have 2 6”/50, 4 3”/40 AA and 4 machine guns.
Thailand has a single destroyer, the ex UK R class Phra Raung. 1050 tons she makes 35 knots and has 3 4”/40, 1 3”/40 AA, 2 twin 533mm tubes and 3 20mm AA.
Thailand has 2 Italian built 13 knot 400 ton Minelayers, the Nong Sarai and Bang Rachan. They have 2 76mm/40, 2 Bofors 40mm, 2 Madsen 20mm and up to 142 mines.
Thailand has 10 Italian built Adriatic type torpedo boats. These are 325 tons capable of 31 knots and carry 3 3”/40 AA guns, 2 20mm, 4 machine guns and 6 457mm tubes, 2 single and two twins.
Thailand also has 4 Japanese built coastal torpedo boats. 120 tons they make 20 knots with 1 76mm/40, 2 20mm AA and 2 single 457mm torpedo tubes.
Finally for torpedo craft Thailand has 10 British built motor torpedo boats, 5 16 ton and 5 11 ton. The former make 40 knots, the latter 37 and the former carry 4, the latter 2 machine guns, both carry 2 457mm torpedoes and options for 2 depth charges.
Thailand also has 4 submarines. Japanese built the Wirun class are 400 tons and make 15 knots surfaced, 10 submerged with a 4800 knot range. They have 1 76mm/25, 1 machine gun and 4 450mm bow tubes with no reloads.
Thailand also has 4 50 ton patrol boats that can be armed at need.
Thailand has a regiment strength Marine corps modeled on the USMC and a small naval aviation arm
Air Forces:
Thailand has a mid-sized air force of 300 planes.
The standard Thai Fighter is the Hawk export biplane from the US, an open cockpit retractable gear design that nonetheless has decent performance for a biplane with one heavy and one medium machine gun and up to 500 pound of bombs, 60 are in service having been license built. Thailand is replacing this with more advanced models of Hawk monoplane from Curtis, modern all metal monoplanes with good performance and 2 23mm cannon in the export version, 20 are currently in service with more on order. They are looking to license build the new Republic SEV 6 export monoplane when that is finished.
For light bombers the Thai standard is the Japanese Ki-31 a fixed gear dive bomber of relatively unspectacular performance, they have 30. They also have 70 US designed Corsair observation bombers, a 20’s biplane design they license built, slow, low ceilinged but with decent range, 2 fixed and 1 flexible machine guns and 500 pounds of bombs.
For medium bombers the Thais have 20 B-14 export bombers from the US. They are in negotiations to buy Ki-22 Bombers from Japan to supplement them and to license build Short Swordsmen.
The remaining aircraft of the Thai Air Force are trainers or transports, of a variety of sources, some license built.
The Thai Navy operates 25 modern single engine float planes imported from Japan from both shore bases and their ships.
Thailand lacks paratroopers or advanced aeronautical research
Weapons of Mass Destruction:
Thailand has no nuclear, biological or chemical weapons program.
Problems:
Thailand has territorial disputes with France and Britain
Thailand lacks industry
Thailand is heavily dependent on imports
-The Eve of War, the World on October 1st 1940, Eagle Press, Philadelphia, 2001
Basics:
Thailand is the only southeast Asian country to avoid colonization. It is nominally a constitutional monarchy under the house of Chakri, it is in practice a military dictatorship with King Rama VIII a minor in exile in Switzerland. It was a member of the Entente in WWI and until 1939 was named Siam.
Economy:
Thailand is a primarily export driven agricultural economy, with its main export crop being rice. This is followed by sugar and exotic woods. Thailand has very little industry and is highly dependent on imports, especially of oil.
Land Forces:
Thailand has an active army of 120,000 nominally in 12 divisions and an independent armored brigade.
The standard Thai longarm is the Siamese Mauser, either the type 46/47 and its upgrades based on the Swedish Mauser or the Type 66 that includes features of the Japanese Arisaka. Older rifles are chambered in 8x50mm Siamese Mauser, based on but not interchangeable with 8x50mm Mannlicher, or the newer 8x52mm Siamese Mauser. They are attempting to replace this with the ZH-33, a Czech gas operated semi-Automatic with a detachable magazine, but are having difficulties converting the design to 8x52mm and producing it to the required tolerances.
The standard Thai pistol is the Nambu in 8x22mm. This is supplemented by Luger P08, FN and Astra Models in various calibers. Thailand also uses MP-18 variants in 9mm as submachine guns, primarily for its military police and issued to assault units at need.
The standard Thai machine guns is the Browning M1917 in 8x52mm, used as a heavy machine gun for company levels and higher. As a section machine gun the Madsen in 8x52mm is used, 2 per platoon. Some units have older unconverted 8x50mm models. For AA Vickers guns in .55 Boys are used, something also doubling as AT guns.
For infantry support the Thais issue the Japanese Type 10 smoothbore 50mm Grenade launchers. At the battalion level they have a battery of 90mm Japanese built mortars. For Anti-tank use the Thais have bought a limited number of .55 Boys AT rifles.
As anti-tank weapons in addition to their Vickers guns and Boys Rifles the Thais have a small number of Bofors 37mm/45 AT guns. The AT guns are held under the command of higher headquarters and released to lower formations at need. Some units have the Bofors convertible 47mm/75mm which can fire in direct support or be converted to a 47mm AT gun.
For AA work the Thais use machine guns at the lowest level, either 8mm or new .55 Vickers. For higher level AA they use either British two pounder AA guns, 36 self-propelled on tank chassis, or modern 40mm Bofors. For heavy AA they use 75mm Bofors guns, either 30 caliber Model 1914 or modern 52 caliber pieces, of which they have only a small amount.
For field artillery the Thai standard is the Krupp 75mm Mountain gun, either the Model 1906, the Model 1908 or Japanese copies thereof, or the Bofors 75mm/22 M1928, a modern gun derived from a Krupp design. Thailand is currently trying to standardize on the latter. Thailand is also adopting a Bofors convertible 47mm/75mm infantry gun for directly supporting its infantry units, and a 75mm/40 Bofors gun as a longer ranged alternative for some of its units.
For heavier artillery the Thais use the Bofors 105mm/24. As their heaviest pieces they use the 105mm/42 and 150mm/22, though they have less than 30 of each, all from Bofors.
Thailand has a modest Tank force of 150 vehicles.
10 are WWI era Whippets, 14 tons, 8 mph with 4 machine guns, they are usable only for training.
30 are Vickers 6 ton Mark E, a 22mph escort design with armor against MGs and a two man turret with a 47mm and a machine gun.
12 are Vickers amphibious lights, 2.5 tons, protected against machine gun fire and carrying a machine gun, they make 30 mph on road and 4 in the water.
50 are Japanese Type 95 ha Go, with a low velocity 37mm, 2 machine guns speed of 28 mph and light armor.
50 more are 2 ton tankettes from the UK, capable of 30mph with a fixed machine gun and splinter armor.
Thailand has 12 Armored cars on Morris Truck chassis armed with machine guns.
Thailand has relatively limited motorization with only units attached to higher headquarters and the infantry of the armored brigade fully motorized. Thailand has however standardized on vehicles of the Morris company for its fleet. Thailand does make use of bicycles to somewhat compensate for this.
Naval Forces:
Thailand has a relatively small coastal defense navy.
The most powerful ships are the Coastal Defense Vessels Thonburi and Sri Ayudha. Japanese built they are 2300 tons, unseaworthy, lightly protected against 6” shellfire and capable of 15.5 knots on diesels. They have four20cm/50 in twin turrets fore and aft and 4 single 76mm/40, with 4 40mm Bofors and 8 machine guns as AA.
Under construction are the 6000 ton cruisers Taksin and Naresuan, being built in Italy. They will make 31 knots, have protection against 6” shellfire and carry two float planes when completed in 1943. They are armed with 3 twin 6”/53 bofors guns, two aft superimposed and 1 fore, with 6 76mm/40, 4 40mm Bofors, 6 20mm Madsen and 2 triple 533mm torpedo tubes.
In service are the sloops Tachin and Maekong, 1400 ton Japanese built 17 knot vessels. They have 4 120mm/45 in single centerline low angle mounts, 4 20mm Madsen guns and 2 twin 457mm Torpedo tubes, with capacity for a float plane and 20 mines.
Thailand has two British built 1000 ton gunboats, the Rukhodaya and Ratankosindra. 12 knot vessels they are armored against destroyer type weapons but short ranged. They have 2 6”/50, 4 3”/40 AA and 4 machine guns.
Thailand has a single destroyer, the ex UK R class Phra Raung. 1050 tons she makes 35 knots and has 3 4”/40, 1 3”/40 AA, 2 twin 533mm tubes and 3 20mm AA.
Thailand has 2 Italian built 13 knot 400 ton Minelayers, the Nong Sarai and Bang Rachan. They have 2 76mm/40, 2 Bofors 40mm, 2 Madsen 20mm and up to 142 mines.
Thailand has 10 Italian built Adriatic type torpedo boats. These are 325 tons capable of 31 knots and carry 3 3”/40 AA guns, 2 20mm, 4 machine guns and 6 457mm tubes, 2 single and two twins.
Thailand also has 4 Japanese built coastal torpedo boats. 120 tons they make 20 knots with 1 76mm/40, 2 20mm AA and 2 single 457mm torpedo tubes.
Finally for torpedo craft Thailand has 10 British built motor torpedo boats, 5 16 ton and 5 11 ton. The former make 40 knots, the latter 37 and the former carry 4, the latter 2 machine guns, both carry 2 457mm torpedoes and options for 2 depth charges.
Thailand also has 4 submarines. Japanese built the Wirun class are 400 tons and make 15 knots surfaced, 10 submerged with a 4800 knot range. They have 1 76mm/25, 1 machine gun and 4 450mm bow tubes with no reloads.
Thailand also has 4 50 ton patrol boats that can be armed at need.
Thailand has a regiment strength Marine corps modeled on the USMC and a small naval aviation arm
Air Forces:
Thailand has a mid-sized air force of 300 planes.
The standard Thai Fighter is the Hawk export biplane from the US, an open cockpit retractable gear design that nonetheless has decent performance for a biplane with one heavy and one medium machine gun and up to 500 pound of bombs, 60 are in service having been license built. Thailand is replacing this with more advanced models of Hawk monoplane from Curtis, modern all metal monoplanes with good performance and 2 23mm cannon in the export version, 20 are currently in service with more on order. They are looking to license build the new Republic SEV 6 export monoplane when that is finished.
For light bombers the Thai standard is the Japanese Ki-31 a fixed gear dive bomber of relatively unspectacular performance, they have 30. They also have 70 US designed Corsair observation bombers, a 20’s biplane design they license built, slow, low ceilinged but with decent range, 2 fixed and 1 flexible machine guns and 500 pounds of bombs.
For medium bombers the Thais have 20 B-14 export bombers from the US. They are in negotiations to buy Ki-22 Bombers from Japan to supplement them and to license build Short Swordsmen.
The remaining aircraft of the Thai Air Force are trainers or transports, of a variety of sources, some license built.
The Thai Navy operates 25 modern single engine float planes imported from Japan from both shore bases and their ships.
Thailand lacks paratroopers or advanced aeronautical research
Weapons of Mass Destruction:
Thailand has no nuclear, biological or chemical weapons program.
Problems:
Thailand has territorial disputes with France and Britain
Thailand lacks industry
Thailand is heavily dependent on imports
-The Eve of War, the World on October 1st 1940, Eagle Press, Philadelphia, 2001
Things are getting chaotic alright. How different from OTL so far?
Thailand's army and air force are looking pretty good for a country that narrowly averted colonization. If they fully commit to the war they could be a big thorn for France and Britain. That's a large "if" though.
Thailand's army and air force are looking pretty good for a country that narrowly averted colonization. If they fully commit to the war they could be a big thorn for France and Britain. That's a large "if" though.
LinkedTortoise
Monthly Donor
I think just one or two days behind so far. OTL's Battle of Sedan was 12-15 of May and they are just reaching Sedan on the 13th. The more worrisome thing is Germany looking at Switzerland more than in OTL. Sure the Wehrmacht will win but it's gonna bleed them even if they just take the cities and wait for the Swiss in the mountains to starve.
France is also more prepared to since they have realized Belgium isn't doing anything.
But either way this is Ghastly Victories so whoever wins is going to need a new army.
And they are going to have to redefine the definition of 'winning'.