Get the US and GB & Co to do better in the Pacific...

[DougM]

We see a lot of get Japan to do better in the Pacific thread (very hard to do). So how about a how Do we get the US and GB & Co to do better.
The POD(s) can be pre 1941. But basically Japan does what they did up to and including Dec 7 1941. The outcome of Dec 7th does not need to be the same but the morning has to START like it did with Japanese aircraft bombing Peril Harbor,

Some thoughts off the top of my head.
The US has torpedoes that a actually work.
The US started the build up a bit sooner so will get various ships sooner,
A change in prio gets the US better aircraft (mostly navel) sooner the OTL.

So what do you think. With a bit of creative thinking how soon can we get the US GB &Co a victory in the Pacific?

 

[naraic]

Force Z was within a few thousand meters of a Japanese cruiser squadron at night but they were not spotted. Those cruisers were all over the place in the early part of the Pacific campaign.

Have Force Z trade themselves against that cruiser squadron in a night action instead of dieing to an air attack and you slow down the Japanese in the Dutch East Indies significantly. I would expect Force Z to win this engagement but take a torpedo hit or two and be forced to retreat but even if they were sunk in the engagement it would be a win compared to otl.

Do something better in Malaya to shut down Japanese logistics in Malaya. Either evacuate bicycles or shut down the one train line along the kra peninsula (bombing, commando raids, shelling by surcouf).

Just 2 suggestions that are rather easy to implement and would have a massive effect.

A third would be swing the Mediterranean campaign to allow a bigger Royal Navy fleet to be sent east. One suggestion would be save one of Glorious Courageous and Ark Royal. Have a second carrier in taranto leading to a larger portion of the Italian fleet being sunk. That's a big enough win that you can realise a carrier or two and a few extra battleships east.

 

[CV(N)-6]

MacArthur dies and someone else takes over the Philippine command, the Dutch stick with their submarine defense plan in the DEI.

 

[sparky42]

Change the leadership of the British forces in Malaya?

 

[ArtosStark]

Change the leadership of the British forces in Malaya?

I have personally always liked the idea of Ironside for the role. Bit debatable how he would have done there, but interesting anyway.

 

[MKD]

Start by building some landward defenses in Singapore?

 

[nbcman]

British:
Don't intervene in Greece except for holding Crete and finish off the Italians in Africa in late 1940 or early 1941. This frees up material and better leadership for the far East. This also eliminates the need for club runs to Malta which saves Ark Royal and frees up USS Wasp a month earlier which could make her available for Midway.
Have more alert guards at Alexandria harbor in December 1941.

US:
After Japanese minisubs are sighted and attacked, someone with a brain decides to get the base alerted. 15-30 minutes of an alert is better than nothing.
MacArthur and his cronies are not recalled to US Army service and there is more competent leadership of the defense of the Philippines.
Move supplies into Bataan peninsula and improve the land as opposed to trying to defend a disease ridden hellhole.
Earlier adoption of skip bombing techniques by the USAAF.
The USN doesn't screw up and orders convoy procedures along US east coast immediately after war is declared instead of having about 60 tankers sunk or damaged in the following 5 months before convoys are started in mid May. Reducing the loss 3.1 million tons of merchant ships and thousands of merchant marine sailors was easily achievable.
Never ever think about Alaska cruisers and build something useful like two more SoDak BBs (which were built by the New York Shipbuilding Corporation) or Essex CVs (which were not).

 

[Northstar]

A third would be swing the Mediterranean campaign to allow a bigger Royal Navy fleet to be sent east. One suggestion would be save one of Glorious Courageous and Ark Royal. Have a second carrier in taranto leading to a larger portion of the Italian fleet being sunk. That's a big enough win that you can realise a carrier or two and a few extra battleships east.

I wonder if there's a way to have the French fleet that was scuttled at Toulon in 1942 end up in French Indochina and then defect to support the allies?

I suspect that there might be something in this:

"In June 1940, the Fall of France made the French hold on Indochina tenuous. The isolated colonial administration was cut off from outside help and outside supplies. After negotiations with Japan, the French allowed the Japanese to set up military bases in Indochina.[59] This seemingly subservient behaviour convinced Major-General Plaek Pibulsonggram, the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Thailand, that Vichy France would not seriously resist a campaign by the Thai military to recover parts of Cambodia and Laos that had been taken from Thailand by France in the early 20th century. In October 1940, the military forces of Thailand attacked across the border with Indochina and launched the Franco-Thai War. Although the French won an important naval victory over the Thais, Japan forced the French to accept Japanese mediation of a peace treaty that returned the disputed territory to Thai control. The French were left in place to administer the rump colony of Indochina until 9 March 1945, when the Japanese staged a coup d'état in French Indochina and took control, establishing their own colony, the Empire of Vietnam, as a double puppet state." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France)

Bolding mine.

I'm not sure how plausible this would be without doing further reading, but how about this; the French lose that important naval battle and in response send their Mediterranean fleet to French Indochina. Instead of being scuttled in Toulon in 1942, the fleet defects and can be used as an additional force in the Pacific theatre. I mean, technically the 'neutral' French at this point don't need a fleet in the Mediterranean and they're being attacked by Thailand in Indochina...

Northstar

 

[sparky42]

I wonder if there's a way to have the French fleet that was scuttled at Toulon in 1942 end up in French Indochina and then defect to support the allies?

I suspect that there might be something in this:
snip

Bolding mine.

I'm not sure how plausible this would be without doing further reading, but how about this; the French lose that important naval battle and in response send their Mediterranean fleet to French Indochina. Instead of being scuttled in Toulon in 1942, the fleet defects and can be used as an additional force in the Pacific theatre. I mean, technically the 'neutral' French at this point don't need a fleet in the Mediterranean and they're being attacked by Thailand in Indochina...

Northstar

I cant see the Vichy Regime sending a core bargining chip to the other side of the world, moreover with the aftermath of the RN attack on the French fleet and taking what French hulls that they could I can't see them being willing to risk the RN having another go at the fleet.

 

[Northstar]

I cant see the Vichy Regime sending a core bargining chip to the other side of the world, moreover with the aftermath of the RN attack on the French fleet and taking what French hulls that they could I can't see them being willing to risk the RN having another go at the fleet.

We'll note that down as very implausible then. 😉

Northstar

 

[Mike D]

If the UK start releasing aircraft from home based squadrons earlier you could have tropicalised Spitfires in Malta/North Africa with Hurricanes and P-40s in the Far East by the time the Japanese kick off. That plus better co-ordination between the Royal Navy and the RAF might be enough to save POW and Repulse and might even allow them to disrupt landings in Malaya. With the Germans moving bombers east for Barbarossa you should even be well on the way to having a proper radar/communications network in place to support the fighters. If you really want to push things you could get a few squadrons of Beaufighter night fighters and fighter bombers in Singapore by December 1941 too.

Get a better commander than Percival for Malaya. He was a perfectly competent staff officer but not suited to being the main man. A better commander (Montgomery is probably ideal with his obsession with training if you can get an equal replacement for North Africa) might improve the performance of ground forces enough to have the Japanese logistic chain break down before Singapore falls, especially if Force Z can get among their convoys and retire before the Japanese air power get them.

 

[Jearom]

I cant see the Vichy Regime sending a core bargining chip to the other side of the world, moreover with the aftermath of the RN attack on the French fleet and taking what French hulls that they could I can't see them being willing to risk the RN having another go at the fleet.

The better POD would be to prevent Mers-el-Kébir. Either they join the Free French or maybe a US internment in the Caribbean as in Keynes' Cruisers.

Keynes' Cruisers

July 5, 1940 Martinique The harbor was getting full. Two battleships, two battle cruisers and four cruisers had arrived from the metropole. Normally one or two avisos would have been a full harbor. An American battleship, USS Texas, along with a pair of cruisers were paying a port visit...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Logan2879]

I have personally always liked the idea of Ironside for the role. Bit debatable how he would have done there, but interesting anyway.

I agree it should be Ironside with a good deputy commander which should be either Carton de Wiart, Lieutenant-General Adrian or Gott, Lieutenant-General William Henry Ewart

 

[ArtosStark]

Speaking as a Canadian, allowing Canadian soldiers sent to Britain serve outside of Europe. The could have been sent to North Africa, freeing up Australians for service in the Far East. The ones sent to Hong Kong would probably also be of more use in Malaya.

 

[DougM]

I was hoping that folks would have ways of improving the New Zealand, Astrailia and Canad and such areas but I am less familiar with them so I can’t give an PODs for them.
I was watching a YouTube vid by Drachinifil in the torpedo mess and he commented on a Japanese carrier that a sub fired are but the toros being garbage did nothing any idea how much could have been sunk when if the toros were of say average effectivness?
That combined with an extra US flat top at Midaway could have big effects.

 

[173rd LRRP]

Probably cease battleship production early in the war

 

[Rickshaw]

After 1944 stop the Americans from stopping the Australians from fully participating in the War. The US Government didn't want any worthwhile Commonwealth participation in the war because they wanted to dictate terms to the Japanese which favoured them, rather than the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth had upset them with the ANZAC Pact which dictated how Australia and New Zealand wanted the post-war Pacific to be organised. This ended up with the Australians being employed in the Islands on sideshow campaigns.

 

[Bougnas]

After 1944 stop the Americans from stopping the Australians from fully participating in the War. The US Government didn't want any worthwhile Commonwealth participation in the war because they wanted to dictate terms to the Japanese which favoured them, rather than the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth had upset them with the ANZAC Pact which dictated how Australia and New Zealand wanted the post-war Pacific to be organised. This ended up with the Australians being employed in the Islands on sideshow campaigns.

As an addition to that, a full participation of Australia could include not cancelling the Sentinel Cruiser Tank program, as OTL neither the British nor the US really provided adequate tanks early enough. The Aussies were supposed to introduce AC 3s with the redesigned Perrier-Cadillac powerplant, a streamlined hull front with no bow MG but increased slope, and a roomier turret with a 25 pounder gun. Smaller and somewhat similarly armored as the Sherman with comparable or better mobility, but with an even bigger punch than the 75mm gun (and considerably more useful than the 76mm CS gun used on Aussie Matildas).

These would be followed by AC 4s with a more powerfull engine made of Gypsy Majors instead of Cadillacs and a greater diameter turret ring, some with a 25 pounder, some with a 17 pounder (not needed against the Japanese however).