The Bf 109T, Fi 167 and Ju 87C should've been a workable members of the air group.
How so?
Germany goes with hybrid carries after the Panzerschiffe
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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The Bf 109T, Fi 167 and Ju 87C should've been a workable members of the air group.
How so?
Driftless
Donor
I know those were the candidates for often delayed GZ. But in your OP, you have postulated several ships, which to my mind leans towards more purpose built aircraft (the Fi-167 was purpose built for carrier work.) The Stuka was highly adaptable to be sure, but Ju.87C acccumulated extra weight with the navalization. How well would that have worked on the truncated hybrid deck? (I don't know the answer to that). Certainly, I wouldn't expect the Me.109T, with extra weight as well, to be routinely going toe-to-toe against frontline Allied fighter on a regular basis. However, wasn't the Wildcat/Martlet the last naval fighter of the WW2 era with a narrow wheel-span? Even the USN, with longer experience with carrier borne fighters ditched that configuration. To circle back to my original thought, were the Me.109T and Ju.87C alomost proof-of-concept adaptations, just as starting points for KM carrier aviation?
The other consideration, wouldn't these hybrid ships have a different combat mission than the "white elephant" GZ? Would that ultimately lead to different aircraft needed long-term (optimistic
) ?Something like that might ”work” for the large navies if they wanted to go that route given the larger basing/fleet train they have, but I would question the value for Germany even as a raider. Best will in the world the air group is going to lose aircraft from non combat incidents even without an active war, wasn’t accidental loss the largest factor in plane loss for the USN for example?I would keep the twins, make another pair even, and the 4xGZ for a buddy system.
Turn the Hippers into hybrids with 2x3x15cm, the USN designed a 10.000t one with 24 aircraft, good enough for me. They can scout for and search shipping until the free for all is declared.
If one gets sunk, it is not much of a loss.
I would suggest always asking the British about naval matters... the actual British officers of the time, not the forum kind.
"...the Director of Naval Construction's department apparently did prepare a sketch design for a cruiser-carrier in 1933, although no details of it have survived. It was
rejected by the board, at least in part because of the fear that other nations would follow suit. The hybrid would not only make an effective trade protection vessel, but, as Chatfield had mentioned, a good commerce raider as well, and the Admiralty did not want to give anyone ideas along that line."
A hybrid is both a bad warship and the best commerce raider.
But they do look good, very steampunky:
For a German raider out in the Atlantic with no fleet train as such, how long can the air group remain viable? I mean ok OTL gives them the French cost to support them, but the KM planners can’t expect that, so these ships would have to get out from the RN blockade, operate in the Atlantic while burning fuel and aircraft… They pull into any port the Allies will know about it, and even then that doesn’t allow them to replace aircraft, so how long until that “24 aircraft” is whittled down?
Well put. That's what I was thinking about when I postulated an updated alt-He51 (that worked ITTL), rather than otl-navalised aircraft that never (as far as I am aware) landed on or took off from a real carrier.I know those were the candidates for often delayed GZ. But in your OP, you have postulated several ships, which to my mind leans towards more purpose built aircraft (the Fi-167 was purpose built for carrier work.) The Stuka was highly adaptable to be sure, but Ju.87C acccumulated extra weight with the navalization. How well would that have worked on the truncated hybrid deck? (I don't know the answer to that). Certainly, I wouldn't expect the Me.109T, with extra weight as well, to be routinely going toe-to-toe against frontline Allied fighter on a regular basis. However, wasn't the Wildcat/Martlet the last naval fighter of the WW2 era with a narrow wheel-span? Even the USN, with longer experience with carrier borne fighters ditched that configuration. To circle back to my original thought, were the Me.109T and Ju.87C alomost proof-of-concept adaptations, just as starting points for KM carrier aviation?
The other consideration, wouldn't these hybrid ships have a different combat mission than the "white elephant" GZ? Would that ultimately lead to different aircraft needed long-term (optimistic
THat is a valid concern, and would be valid regarding fuel, food and ammo for any raider as well.
Which is why the KM created the first AOE:
https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/auxships/index.html
So, they could have transported cratered aircraft as replacements, and even launch them if provided with a catapult.
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Yeah but a hybrid raider is going to using fuel at much higher rate due to flight operations, not too mention Av Gas, (wonder how much a hybrid could hold, and how quickly regular operations of 24 aircraft would use it up?), so resupply ships are going to be needed at a much higher rate and more coordination I would think, which I would say increases the detection risks, or reduces the “operational readiness” of the hybrid as its moving to its supply ships?
As for crating spares and flying them off if they had a catapult, surely that increases the risk of the supply ships being known and intercepted as well? How easy would it be to hide such equipment when making port runs for fuel and av gas?
True, but that would be the price to pay for a significantly more effective raider.
...and any raider should be diesel powered, but its the Kriegsmarine, so...
But they did manage to have a lot of supply ships in operation even after the loss of Bismarck.
The problem with Hybrids is that they are neither fish nor fowl and end up as compromised as gunboats and compromised as aircraft carriers
For me it would be better for them to have built the Twins, B and T and then build proper light carriers to go with them
In the late 30s what would be their mission - to support a small SAG in finding enemy (cough British Cough) convoys to attack and perhaps shoot down/chase off snoopers?
I have never really understood what the GZ's mission was other than to show the world that Germany too can have a big aircraft carrier.
The other issue (pretty much for any Naval POD for Germany) is Geography - a German force has to get past the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap to get at any convoy
This is going to be hard and so it proved even for masses of Submarines even when the French coast became available (which our carrier or Hybrid designers cannot plan for)
And lets assume that a Hybrid does make it into the Atlantic, does find and successfully attacks a convoy - then what?
Its probably exhausted a large % of its aircraft weapons and the RN has a pretty good idea where it is if it didn't already!
It would probably have to turn around and rerun the gauntlet or go to France if that is an option.
But - the German SAGs were largely hopeless as a war winning weapons and the terrible Twins only really made 1 mass sortie into the Atlantic as raiders and sunk or captured 11 ships and then got stuck in Brest so I cannot see it being any worse than OTL by having Hybrids instead!
For me it would be better for them to have built the Twins, B and T and then build proper light carriers to go with them
In the late 30s what would be their mission - to support a small SAG in finding enemy (cough British Cough) convoys to attack and perhaps shoot down/chase off snoopers?
I have never really understood what the GZ's mission was other than to show the world that Germany too can have a big aircraft carrier.
The other issue (pretty much for any Naval POD for Germany) is Geography - a German force has to get past the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap to get at any convoy
This is going to be hard and so it proved even for masses of Submarines even when the French coast became available (which our carrier or Hybrid designers cannot plan for)
And lets assume that a Hybrid does make it into the Atlantic, does find and successfully attacks a convoy - then what?
Its probably exhausted a large % of its aircraft weapons and the RN has a pretty good idea where it is if it didn't already!
It would probably have to turn around and rerun the gauntlet or go to France if that is an option.
But - the German SAGs were largely hopeless as a war winning weapons and the terrible Twins only really made 1 mass sortie into the Atlantic as raiders and sunk or captured 11 ships and then got stuck in Brest so I cannot see it being any worse than OTL by having Hybrids instead!
Why not just build a new aircraft then? The Fi 167 is perhaps the best suited aircraft for the short carrier deck, and I doubt the Germans couldn't come up with a lighter monoplane to act as the main fighter and escort. Maybe ask Heinkel and Arado to design such an aircraft?
Assuming all things remain OTL? I mean if the KM went heavy into Hybrid raiders, could they still carry out the Norway invasion? If not (or a different outcome occurs) then the butterflies are lose.
Ships with hangars would make much better troop transports.
If they get caught they get sunk... same thing that would have happened to the KM IOTL... if they had been caught.
They were so outgunned that it shouldnt have worked.
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They could be useful for providing (additional) air cover in the early stages in Norway. That doesn't mean they are going to be a good investment, but more that they have some value. For example, they could also be useful against Poland, soviet union and the Baltic states, and only later reveal their flaws.
Several units of those could have pulled a Pearl style attack on Malta.
So little faith in the Luftwaffe's glorious ships!
They sail North around Russia, past Japan (dropping off a few tank designs in exchange for some Long Lances), across the Indian Ocean, hitting Colombo as they pass, then through Suez. Nobody expected an attack on Alexandria, which is left a smoking ruin, and then on to Malta, followed by Schnapps all round and "Hurrah for us!" in German.
But suddenly...
Goering wakes with a start after being lightly shaken by a nervous-looking aide:
"Herr Reichsmarshall, I'm afraid there is bad news about our cruiser carriers...."
I don't seem to find any references to the He52 or He53 so could you please post a link to a description.