Germany drenched in Guilt Post-WW2

[Wolfhound]

As opposed to the allies destroying all symbols of the Nazi regime and having it escape people's minds - to the point where people would openly deny what had happened in WW2, a phenomenom explored in Adam Curtis' 'The Living Dead' - the Allies leave old symbols of the reich around and espouse a message to the effect of 'This is what you did'.
Did this idea have any merit at the time? And what would be the effects?

 

[I Blame Communism]

What's a "symbol of the old regime"? Because it's not like Germany doesn't have memorials to the horrors. Loads of them. So by symbols you mean retention of Nazi flags, uniforms, organisations, etcetera?

Holycraphwhatareyouthinking?

It's not like the German's weren't told "this is what you did", either: this was a key part of the de-Naziification process. Sorry, but you seem to have a limited understanding of post-war Germany which is leading you to make rather offensive remarks (the way you say it, Holocaust denial is phenomenon widespread in germany and unknown elsewhere, completely untrue).

 

[David S Poepoe]

There will eventually be a generational change of mind, most likely by those Germans born after 1945 - probably those born in 1975 and later - that will see any guilt as being those associated with previous generations. Much as in the US there were the 'X Generation' and the 'Y Generation', which are being succeeded by the 'Genflex' - as coined by a Metlife report.

It always boils down to question of when does the sins of the father not become the guilt of the children.

 

[Jotun]

@ Wolfhound: Wow. You don't know the first thing about present-day Germany and its inhabitants, do you?

Before you post something like this again, let me tell you that Germany was and still is "guilt-drenched". Believe me, I have been force-fed guilt over the Third Reich and the Holocaust since I can remember, in all forms, in all imaginable media. In school, in books, in TV, radio, the internet, you name it. It has been thus not only for me but for all Germans since the end of WW II, even more so since the '68 unrest.

This guilt is one of the reasons Germany has been very reluctant, to say the least, of asserting herself in international affairs and militarily for the longest time, even to the point of raised eyebrows among even her closest allies for her perceived timidity. Even now, too much assertiveness -or rather, what is deemed such- is met with angry and whiny protest.

The surest way in Germany to end a discussion on any subject is to bring up the Holocaust argument, as soon as one side brings up perfectly valid points that the other side considers to be too far to the right of the mainstream.

As in any country, there are people who deny the Holocaust ever happened. But in contrast to most other countries, doing this is punishable by law and ist is a very small minority that voices these thoughts in the first place. The most vocal denyers of the Holocaust come from great Britain and the USA. You being from the UK and spouting this bullshit makes me think you're one of those brtons who still cling to the old and tired cliché of Germany between '33 and '45. Might the "Sun" be you favorite source of the news?

This topic has NEVER been allowed to "escape people's minds"! Never.
Wolfhound, I find your post to be offensive to the point that I would consider clocking you one had you broached this subject to my face with the same tact and consideration you did in your initial post.

Go do something about your knowledge of Germany AFTER the 12 years of the 1000-year Reich.

Edit:
@David S. Poepoe: I am of 1975 vintage and most of my generation is growing mighty tired of the national guilt complex, let me tell you. It is not that we deny the whole mess happened and germany was guilty of it. We are aware of that. But we are also tired of having to listen to the same old shit, especially mostly from Germans themselves, interestingly less from other nations, including Israel. Being aware of one's past and making sure this past never repeats itself must be enough.

Sorry for the rant, all

 

[I Blame Communism]

@ Wolfhound: Wow. You don't know the first thing about present-day Germany and its inhabitants, do you?

Before you post something like this again, let me tell you that Germany was and still is "guilt-drenched". Believe me, I have been force-fed guilt over the Third Reich and the Holocaust since I can remember, in all forms, in all imaginable media. In school, in books, in TV, radio, the internet, you name it. It has been thus not only for me but for all Germans since the end of WW II, even more so since the '68 unrest.

This guilt is one of the reasons Germany has been very reluctant, to say the least, of asserting herself in international affairs and militarily for the longest time, even to the point of raised eyebrows among even her closest allies for her perceived timidity. Even now, too much assertiveness -or rather, what is deemed such- is met with angry and whiny protest.

The surest way in Germany to end a discussion on any subject is to bring up the Holocaust argument, as soon as one side brings up perfectly valid points that the other side considers to be too far to the right of the mainstream.

As in any country, there are people who deny the Holocaust ever happened. But in contrast to most other countries, doing this is punishable by law and ist is a very small minority that voices these thoughts in the first place. The most vocal denyers of the Holocaust come from great Britain and the USA. You being from the UK and spouting this bullshit makes me think you're one of those brtons who still cling to the old and tired cliché of Germany between '33 and '45. Might the "Sun" be you favorite source of the news?

This topic has NEVER been allowed to "escape people's minds"! Never.
Wolfhound, I find your post to be offensive to the point that I would consider clocking you one had you broached this subject to my face with the same tact and consideration you did in your initial post.

Go do something about your knowledge of Germany AFTER the 12 years of the 1000-year Reich.

Edit:
@David S. Poepoe: I am of 1975 vintage and most of my generation is growing mighty tired of the national guilt complex, let me tell you. It is not that we deny the whole mess happened and germany was guilty of it. We are aware of that. But we are also tired of having to listen to the same old shit, especially mostly from Germans themselves, interestingly less from other nations, including Israel. Being aware of one's past and making sure this past never repeats itself must be enough.

Sorry for the rant, all

Bravo, sir. That was rather my feeling on the matter, but not being a German I didn't feel qualified to be so forcible.

 

[Kabraloth]

<snip>

Being of 1980 vintage, and having posted such rants before, I can only agree with you. The decidedly negative stereotyping of Germany on large parts of the interweb doesn't help, though, although it got better after 2006.

 

[KingIII]

Snip

Stop being so emotional. Saying that you would "Clock Him" makes your argument look immature.

 

[Kabraloth]

Stop being so emotional. Saying that you would "Clock Him" makes your argument look immature.

It's easy to ask for not being emotional when it hasn't been hammered into your brain since early childhood that your nation is evil, your heritage is evil, and you must feel guilty of the crimes your grandparents might have personally commited (in any case, you must feel guilty). Then having thrown into your face that Germany is not feeling guilty enough is absolutely enraging, I can assure you.

 

[Susano]

Stop being so emotional.

Mightily easy for you to say. Hes right in any case.

 

[Northstar]

Stop being so emotional. Saying that you would "Clock Him" makes your argument look immature.

Possibly, but the rest of the argument by far eclipses that, and is very well put.

 

[Valdemar II]

This remind me about a enviorement activist, who use the term "Climate Nausea" because some people kept going on and on and on and on and on about global warming especially on their own pet issues (gender and climate WTF), until people just stop giving a damn, the same thing would happen here just with Holocaust Nausea*.

*As you can see it has already happen for our German posters. Here it would just happen generations earlier.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jotun
@ Wolfhound: Wow. You don't know the first thing about present-day Germany and its inhabitants, do you?

Before you post something like this again, let me tell you that Germany was and still is "guilt-drenched". Believe me, I have been force-fed guilt over the Third Reich and the Holocaust since I can remember, in all forms, in all imaginable media. In school, in books, in TV, radio, the internet, you name it. It has been thus not only for me but for all Germans since the end of WW II, even more so since the '68 unrest.

This guilt is one of the reasons Germany has been very reluctant, to say the least, of asserting herself in international affairs and militarily for the longest time, even to the point of raised eyebrows among even her closest allies for her perceived timidity. Even now, too much assertiveness -or rather, what is deemed such- is met with angry and whiny protest.

The surest way in Germany to end a discussion on any subject is to bring up the Holocaust argument, as soon as one side brings up perfectly valid points that the other side considers to be too far to the right of the mainstream.

As in any country, there are people who deny the Holocaust ever happened. But in contrast to most other countries, doing this is punishable by law and ist is a very small minority that voices these thoughts in the first place. The most vocal denyers of the Holocaust come from great Britain and the USA. You being from the UK and spouting this bullshit makes me think you're one of those brtons who still cling to the old and tired cliché of Germany between '33 and '45. Might the "Sun" be you favorite source of the news?

This topic has NEVER been allowed to "escape people's minds"! Never.
Wolfhound, I find your post to be offensive to the point that I would consider clocking you one had you broached this subject to my face with the same tact and consideration you did in your initial post.

Go do something about your knowledge of Germany AFTER the 12 years of the 1000-year Reich.

Edit:
@David S. Poepoe: I am of 1975 vintage and most of my generation is growing mighty tired of the national guilt complex, let me tell you. It is not that we deny the whole mess happened and germany was guilty of it. We are aware of that. But we are also tired of having to listen to the same old shit, especially mostly from Germans themselves, interestingly less from other nations, including Israel. Being aware of one's past and making sure this past never repeats itself must be enough.

Sorry for the rant, all
Bravo, sir. That was rather my feeling on the matter, but not being a German I didn't feel qualified to be so forcible.

u beat me to it. well said.

 

[OAM47]

This remind me about a enviorement activist, who use the term "Climate Nausea" because some people kept going on and on and on and on and on about global warming especially on their own pet issues (gender and climate WTF), until people just stop giving a damn, the same thing would happen here just with Holocaust Nausea*.

*As you can see it has already happen for our German posters. Here it would just happen generations earlier.

That is actualy pretty dead on I think. I think its only half the problem at most though. The other half being reverse psycology (though certainly not on the issue of the holocost). For issues like education and envromentalism, it is seen as "cool" to go against what the experts tell you. Why throw your fast food rapper out the window when you could just put it in your car trash can? Because you're being "cool" by going against the man. (of course, by about 30 or so, people stop this attitude... ususaly)

I think this is the main problem with the US education system. While now a days we can point to alot of things like NCLB, the root cause is at one point, learning became "uncool".

(Sorry for going a bitr off topic)

 

[OperationGreen]

Could the guilt actually push young people into Neo Nazism? I am no expert on Germany however I do remember seeing a Neo Nazi protest in the papers (In the UK) which had a few kids with “Grandpa was right” on their T-Shirts. Is the “Guilt” doing the opposite of its intention?

I have visited Berlin and going in the Holocaust Memorial and the Jewish Museum I was surprised by the extremely heavy security so there must be a good reason for nearly having more security personal then guests.

Btw, while England does have the Sun and David Irvin most people get the difference between Germany in 2009 and Germany in 1939.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Could the guilt actually push young people into Neo Nazism? I am no expert on Germany however I do remember seeing a Neo Nazi protest in the papers (In the UK) which had a few kids with “Grandpa was right” on their T-Shirts. Is the “Guilt” doing the opposite of its intention?

I have visited Berlin and going in the Holocaust Memorial and the Jewish Museum I was surprised by the extremely heavy security so there must be a good reason for nearly having more security personal then guests.

Btw, while England does have the Sun and David Irvin most people get the difference between Germany in 2009 and Germany in 1939.

Just not yourself, it would appear.

No, the guilt is not bloody well doing the opposite of its intention. It's just making people who have absolutely no personal connection to it pissed off that they and their nation appeared to be stuck with it for evermore. Do our chaps sound like neo-Nazis to you?

Breathe, man, breathe....

Ahem. Possibly the reason for the heavy security at those facilities is because there are Jew-hating terrorists at large and Germany just knows what some people will say if they let anything happen on their watch.

Possibly the reason there weren't many guests is the same as the reason why I, a citizen of Edinburgh, have never been into most of our tourist traps: why go and remind yourself when you've been first reminding yourself, then having it shoved down your throat, since you were young?

Or maybe it was, idunno, a slow day.

 

[The Red]

Germany and the German people have a rich cultural background which is hundreds of years old with many acheivements both in science and culture.If we let our views of the German people be formed for evermore on something truly horrible but happened 65 years ago then we ourselves are the racists.Germans have the guilt forced down them from a young age how can you not see that.Do you know anything about German or the German people whatsoever?

Also remember that a lot of the blame for the Nazis rise to power was because of the allies (ToV).

Germans acknowledge that horrible time but if anything are forced to acknowledge it too much.People should learn to see a country with a strong pacifist stance but with the strongest economy in Europe and a rich culture to boot.

What the Germans have acheived despite decades of fear and paranoia from the likes of wolfhound is truly remarkble and worthy of all our respect.

 

[Carinthium]

Agreed- most people nowadays don't even have a basis for morality, let alone why the sins of the father should be visited upon the son.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Stop being so emotional. Saying that you would "Clock Him" makes your argument look immature.

Well, given that his argument was well-constructed and completely true (down to the clocking part, presumably), I'd rate it considerably more mature than the OP's ignorant and offensive remarks.

 

[LowLevelFunctionary]

I totally agree with Jotun. Well done on telling him off.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

As a Jew I reject the idea that the Nazi crimes were the fault of any nation other than Germany itself.

The idea that France, England, etc somehow forced Germany to engage in genocide, waste scarce resources in time of war and ensuring the enmity and/or death of literally millions(Jews, Ukrainians, etc) who would otherwise have been strong candidates to ally with Germany is without merit.


I ALSO reject the concept of collective or national guilt. To blame ALL Germans means blaming quite a few people who resisted Nazi excesses and suffered/died as a result. I would note that the famed Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal was also of this position.

Needless to say, blaming anyone for anything that happened before they were born is absurd.


My position, had anyone asked me in 1945, a slight problem since I wouldn't be born for some time, would have been to erect some massive monument with the names of the men(and a few women) who were responsible for all the German war crimes, many of whom were not actually German, and whose total number is generally estimated at @90,000, removing names as they were punished while mentioning to the German people that when the names are all gone the monument is removed and the slate can be considered clean.