General Western Roman Empire Thread

[Tjakari]

EDIT:
There seems to be a growing number of Late Roman threads on the board in the last 2-3 days which are focused more or less on the same thing. It seems appropriate to just make a catch-all thread for as long as the forum's interest is peaked in the subject, so please post any and all things considering the 5th century crisis on this thread.

 

[Deleted member 93645]

I asked this before and LSCatilina gave a pretty good response. The gist of it is: even if Majorian was successful, the WRE still would lack resources, manpower, money, and loyalty. To get those resources, either it remains dependent on Germanic foederati, or becomes dependent on the ERE.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

I asked this before and LSCatilina gave a pretty good response. The gist of it is: even if Majorian was successful, the WRE still would lack resources, manpower, money, and loyalty. To get those resources, either it remains dependent on Germanic foederati, or becomes dependent on the ERE.

Basically, at least for awhile. It's still on life support, but the recovery of some semblance of authority in Gaul and Spain, and, crucially, the recovery of North Africa at least puts it in a position where if it holds on long enough it can slowly become a power in its own right again.

 

[Tjakari]

From what I've read, it looks likes the Majorian Empire was set up to succeed in more ways than militarily. I mean to say that the West seemed capable of remaining self-sufficient at least for the most part (certainly enough to hold itself up on its own strength). Just give it a decade and a half of peace and let the foederati settle into their station and the Empire can start the heal, no?

I mean, this comes from what I've taken from a wikipedia article, is there something I'm missing or am I just taking the optimistic route?

 

[Deleted member 93645]

From what I've read, it looks likes the Majorian Empire was set up to succeed in more ways than militarily. I mean to say that the West seemed capable of remaining self-sufficient at least for the most part (certainly enough to hold itself up on its own strength). Just give it a decade and a half of peace and let the foederati settle into their station and the Empire can start the heal, no?

I mean, this comes from what I've taken from a wikipedia article, is there something I'm missing or am I just taking the optimistic route?

The Late Western empire relied on barbarians to project power, being unable to recruit a significant amount of Romans. It was a shell of its former self.

Without a strong leader like Majorian or continuous recruitment from the East, there is no reason for the barbarians to prop up the WRE anymore.

 

[Tjakari]

The Late Western empire relied on barbarians to project power, being unable to recruit a significant amount of Romans. It was a shell of its former self.

Without a strong leader like Majorian or continuous recruitment from the East, there is no reason for the barbarians to prop up the WRE anymore.

But the barbarians weren't a monolithic group of people, they could be broken up so long as they are dealt with on a one to one basis. Majorian could have started the whittling with the Vandals, they had just sacked Rome, took a major city, harassed the coast of Italy itself. They'd have made a prime example, and so long as Majorian keeps the manpower pool of the barbarians pacified eventually they'll have no choice but to prop up the Empire together or be destroyed alone.

 

[snerfuplz]

I always wondered what would happen had Ricimer been proclaimed emperor

 

[Tjakari]

I always wondered what would happen had Ricimer been proclaimed emperor

Ricimer had the support of the armies more than enough to qualify for the position, the question of whether that action could go through depends on the Roman camp.

The people would certainly be pissed, the Senatorial class would also look disfavorably on that development, but at the same time Ricimer had enough influence on the Senate to push through his agenda more than a few times. In the Senate it might be a contentious issue, if only because the minority of Senators who are in favour or abide by Ricimer's proclamation would have his support and the opposition would be placed in a very delicate position.

That's not to mention the Eastern Court which would have been outraged by the level of presumption inherent in the act, nevermind actually recognizing Ricimer.

This would be more than likely come to blows with the loyal Foederates siding against the Senate who would prop up Majorian as their candidate. Majorian would have the support of Aegidius in Gaul as well as the Eastern Empire but whether or not his coalition can last depends on how explosive it gets and how long the two sides stare each other down. Which given how everything in the latter of half of the century seems to be measured in months, nowhere near long enough to have Ricimer come out in the short term as anything but successful.

Germanic or no, the man had the men and the clout to make the situation work for him in the short term if he was forced into it, but afterwards he'd be public enemy number one and the most hated man in Rome.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

I always wondered what would happen had Ricimer been proclaimed emperor

Leo thanks god for giving him such an easy justification to oust Ricimer and prop up someone he likes on the western throne. Ricimer's support crumbles pretty quickly.

 

[calvin1417]

How does this sound for a triple pod. Theodosius I lives 30 years longer and both his sons are super competent and they all work together to preserve the empire. When Honorius comes of age all three emperors are given there sphere of influence. Honorius gets the prefecture of Gaul and rules from trier protecting the Rhine, arcadius gets the prefecture of the east and rules from Antioch protecting against the Persians. Theodosius meanwhile gets the middle two prefectures and rules from Milan protecting the Danube. The empire is united with theodosius as senior emperor. The armies of each region is brought back up to full strength. How does this affect the empire?

 

[Agricola]

EDIT:
There seems to be a growing number of Late Roman threads on the board in the last 2-3 days which are focused more or less on the same thing. It seems appropriate to just make a catch-all thread for as long as the forum's interest is peaked in the subject, so please post any and all things considering the 5th century crisis on this thread.

What is wrong with a lot of threads about the roman empire? I like it! You can't have too many threads about the roman empire.

The roman empire lasted over 600 years, since the foundation almost 1400 years. Not counting the byzantine era. Roman history is that complex, that you cannot discuss every important, very interesting and intelectually challenging aspect in just one thread.

Well, if you refer to this one necromancer lately, trying to rescue the empire, when it was actually way too late, you are right!

But generally your proposal sounds very barbarian from a roman point of view.

 

[calvin1417]

What is wrong with a lot of threads about the roman empire? I like it! You can't have too many threads about the roman empire.

The roman empire lasted over 600 years, since the foundation almost 1400 years. Not counting the byzantine era. Roman history is that complex, that you cannot discuss every important, very interesting and intelectually challenging aspect in just one thread.

Well, if you refer to this one necromancer lately, trying to rescue the empire, when it was actually way too late, you are right!

But generally your proposal sounds very barbarian from a roman point of view.

Honorius is too late to save the empire?

 

[Agricola]

Honorius is too late to save the empire?

Yes. At least the chances for a plausible alternate history are damn low.

 

[Karolus Rex]

Yes. At least the chances for a plausible alternate history are damn low.

If only his father hadn't destroyed the Western Armies making the WRE completely dependent of mercs...

But yes, unfortunately, Honorius is too late (unless you are playing ATW tho ).

 

[calvin1417]

If only his father hadn't destroyed the Western Armies making the WRE completely dependent of mercs...

But yes, unfortunately, Honorius is too late (unless you are playing ATW tho ).

Not even both Honorius and arcadius are competent and coaopritve with each other or Honorius being competent and getting the entire prefecture of ilriycum would save the western empire?

 

[Agricola]

Not even both Honorius and arcadius are competent and coaopritve with each other or Honorius being competent and getting the entire prefecture of ilriycum would save the western empire?

It is just 12 years from the Battle of Frigidus to the hard winter, when the Rhine was frozen and the Vandals, Suebes and Alans invaded Gallia. It is hard to believe, that an almost bankrupted empire, which ruined its tax base over more than a century and was full of corruption, is able to recruit enough roman soldiers in this short timeframe. Even if they can recruit in the Illyricum.

What you need is a new Exercitus Praesentalis in Italy and a fully functional Gallic Field Army to secure the Rhine border. Both did not exist in 406. Thats a lot of recruitment and money.

 

[Karolus Rex]

Not even both Honorius and arcadius are competent and coaopritve with each other or Honorius being competent and getting the entire prefecture of ilriycum would save the western empire?

Rome needed time to recover from it's losses and the Barbarians ain't going to give them that time.

Even if both are competent and cooperate with each other, and yes even with Illyricum, it's a though one.

Like Agricola said he Battle of the Frigidus had happened just 12 years ago. The WRE would need money to bribe the border tribes to ensure peace and they didn't had it, but lets imagine they had it.

They still need to recruit some 60000 to 80000 men, to protect all the European borders, if you ignore Britannia, and then you will need to create a operational fleet on northern Gaul to protect the cost from raids and there is still the need to send men to protect the southern borders of the African territories and I'm still not including the men needed to ensure internal peace.

So you would need a huge amount of men to protect the Empire, you would need to pay them and pay for their gear, for at this time gear was offered not payed by the soldiers like in the past, there was also the need to feed them and etc...

If the original WRA had not been crushed the Empire could had survived, a smaller empire based around the Med would be the most realistic scenario, but without those it was just a matter of time until the Roman Wolf died.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

It is just 12 years from the Battle of Frigidus to the hard winter, when the Rhine was frozen and the Vandals, Suebes and Alans invaded Gallia. It is hard to believe, that an almost bankrupted empire, which ruined its tax base over more than a century and was full of corruption, is able to recruit enough roman soldiers in this short timeframe. Even if they can recruit in the Illyricum.

What you need is a new Exercitus Praesentalis in Italy and a fully functional Gallic Field Army to secure the Rhine border. Both did not exist in 406. Thats a lot of recruitment and money.

The Rhine invasions of 406-407, on their own, would not be difficult to deal with. The Franks nearly defeated them when they crossed, and Stilicho had the military capability to contain and defeat them. The problem was they hit simultaneously with Constantine III crossing over from Gaul, which led to anti-Stilicho elements in Rome taking their chance and overthrowing him, creating a full blown political crisis. When all those things hit at once, then you had a serious problem on the west's hands.

 

[calvin1417]

The Rhine invasions of 406-407, on their own, would not be difficult to deal with. The Franks nearly defeated them when they crossed, and Stilicho had the military capability to contain and defeat them. The problem was they hit simultaneously with Constantine III crossing over from Gaul, which led to anti-Stilicho elements in Rome taking their chance and overthrowing him, creating a full blown political crisis. When all those things hit at once, then you had a serious problem on the west's hands.

So what if the battle of Mainz was a curb stomp for the Frank's against the invaders?

 

[calvin1417]

It is just 12 years from the Battle of Frigidus to the hard winter, when the Rhine was frozen and the Vandals, Suebes and Alans invaded Gallia. It is hard to believe, that an almost bankrupted empire, which ruined its tax base over more than a century and was full of corruption, is able to recruit enough roman soldiers in this short timeframe. Even if they can recruit in the Illyricum.

What you need is a new Exercitus Praesentalis in Italy and a fully functional Gallic Field Army to secure the Rhine border. Both did not exist in 406. Thats a lot of recruitment and money.

What was wrong with the tax base again and how did it start?