General Northern Irish Crapiness

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Just been reading up on the Vanguard Unionist Progressive Party, a party which was described by a Unionist MP as "a certain Hitlerian-type figure ... walking up and down the lines, inspecting his so-called storm-troopers."
Basically an extremist, quasi-Fascist offshoot of the Unionist Party and umbrella organisation for Loyalist, Unionist and Ulster Nationalist paramilitaries.

This of course get's me thinking of how bad Northern Ireland can get without some deranged Tory taking the reigns and turning it into 1941 Poland. Basically, if Britain refuses to intervene for whatever reason then things will eventually get worse and worse. Emergency powers will be enacted, the B-specials will be called out, the UVF will load up and many, many will be killed.

Then of course the Republic will want to intervene. Operation Armageddon is completely stupid , then again it can always be replanned for limited actions in the border area to try and draw the attention of paramilitaries and security forces (who if anything are as bad as each other), with Derry being a primary target. Whatever prevented the British from sending forces may also allow them to at least not condone the Republic for it's "humanitarian invasion".

My basic image is that by the late 70's Northern Ireland has become a horrible mix of early and late period Weimar Germany. An ineffective PM who is constantly being replaced due to his apparent leniency. A clique of leaders of the security forces, former British military personnel, and politicians running the show. Force used to intimidate opposition, both legitimate and paramilitary and a Fascistic organisation of paramilitaries lead by a charismatic leader seeking to take control of the state, all whilst it's territory is occupied by a foreign power.

So, can Wilson be prevented in deploying British troops in 1969?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

It's difficult to imagine Britain not sending the troops in because of the damage that would be done to it's reputation if it just stands back and allows a Bosnia style ethnic bloodbath to happen. Things certainly could have got a lot worse during the early years of The Troubles particularly in the immediate aftermath of Bloody Sunday and during the Sunningdale strike. Apparently one of the reasons why Wilson backed away from confronting the strikers was there was fear that the RUC and the UDR would side with the Loyalists.

I take it the Vanguard leader referring to was Bill Craig? He was a total looper! He was the Home Affairs Minister who banned the October 1968 civil rights march in Derry that is now seen as being the beginning of The Troubles because he thought the movement was a front for the IRA. He also in the final days of Stormont was advocating a Rhodesian style UDI, had it happened it would have been over in a few weeks when NI's economy collapsed without British money. Ironically after Sunningdale Craig proceeded to split his party when advocated coalition with the SDLP, his deputy, who led the faction opposed to Craig's suggestion was a certain David Trimble!

 

[Observer]

Ironically after Sunningdale Craig proceeded to split his party when advocated coalition with the SDLP, his deputy, who led the faction opposed to Craig's suggestion was a certain David Trimble!

Wasn't Trimble one of the few who supported him?

As a result the party was bitterly split with only David Trimble and Glenn Barr backing Craig with the other eleven convention members challenging Craig's leadership. Craig however claimed that he had the backing of the party's rank and file and this was confirmed when sixty percent of party members and backed him at a specially convened meeting. The dissidents then broke away to form what would later become the United Ulster Unionist Party.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Unionist_Progressive_Party)

The opposing faction included Reg Empey and Nelson McCausland among others.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

It's difficult to imagine Britain not sending the troops in because of the damage that would be done to it's reputation if it just stands back and allows a Bosnia style ethnic bloodbath to happen. Things certainly could have got a lot worse during the early years of The Troubles particularly in the immediate aftermath of Bloody Sunday and during the Sunningdale strike. Apparently one of the reasons why Wilson backed away from confronting the strikers was there was fear that the RUC and the UDR would side with the Loyalists.

Indeed, but Wilson did really consider simply expelling Ulster from the Union. Much like in Africa post-colonialism, "Very sad but, it's no longer our problem."

I take it the Vanguard leader referring to was Bill Craig? He was a total looper! He was the Home Affairs Minister who banned the October 1968 civil rights march in Derry that is now seen as being the beginning of The Troubles because he thought the movement was a front for the IRA. He also in the final days of Stormont was advocating a Rhodesian style UDI, had it happened it would have been over in a few weeks when NI's economy collapsed without British money. Ironically after Sunningdale Craig proceeded to split his party when advocated coalition with the SDLP, his deputy, who led the faction opposed to Craig's suggestion was a certain David Trimble!

Oh yeah he was mental. Honestly the Vanguard rallies were disturbingly reminiscent of Nuremberg....
Also his plan for a British Federation, his threats to "exterminate" the IRA and the fact he used the Star of fucking David as part of the Vanguards insignia!

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Wasn't Trimble one of the few who supported him?



(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Unionist_Progressive_Party)

The opposing faction included Reg Empey and Nelson McCausland among others.

Obviously I got that wrong

 

[Arachnid]

I think Britain not intervening is ASB, as long as Ulster is part of the UK the Westminster Government is ultimately responsible for what happens, if things get bad British troops will be sent in if British instructions can't fix the problem.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Indeed, but Wilson did really consider simply expelling Ulster from the Union. Much like in Africa post-colonialism, "Very sad but, it's no longer our problem."

They certainly considered that when in opposition after 1970, apparently the Shadow Cabinet discussed NI under the rather significant codeword of "Algeria." But the two scenarios aren't comparable, the Unionists are the majority in NI and abandoning NI in the face of a terrorist campaign would not have gone down well in Britain. They probably also realised it would be a gargantuan clusterfuck with potentially thousands dead, there could well have been violence against Irish people in Britain , I'm not a fan of the What if Gordon Banks had played TL but it does show how the Troubles could have caused sectarian conflict in Liverpool, Glasgow and other cities.

Oh yeah he was mental. Honestly the Vanguard rallies were disturbingly reminiscent of Nuremberg....
Also his plan for a British Federation, his threats to "exterminate" the IRA and the fact he used the Star of fucking David as part of the Vanguards insignia!

There apparently are some Unionists who think they are the lost tribe of Israel!

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

I think Britain not intervening is ASB, as long as Ulster is part of the UK the Westminster Government is ultimately responsible for what happens, if things get bad British troops will be sent in if British instructions can't fix the problem.

Yes but Ulster had been effectively independent since 1920. That's why Britain did not force anti-secterian reforms earlier, because there was a "gentleman's agreement" as my politics teacher put it, where Westminster did not inerefere in the affairs of Stormount.

They certainly considered that when in opposition after 1970, apparently the Shadow Cabinet discussed NI under the rather significant codeword of "Algeria." But the two scenarios aren't comparable, the Unionists are the majority in NI and abandoning NI in the face of a terrorist campaign would not have gone down well in Britain. They probably also realised it would be a gargantuan clusterfuck with potentially thousands dead, there could well have been violence against Irish people in Britain , I'm not a fan of the What if Gordon Banks had played TL but it does show how the Troubles could have caused sectarian conflict in Liverpool, Glasgow and other cities.

The terrorist campaign hadn't started yet, it was Civil Rights campaigners getting the shite kicked out of the by the RUC untill 1969, then when the government tried to force through reforms all the Loyalists yelled "TRAITORS!!!!!" and proceeded to go fucking insane.
They weren't abandoning anyone to terrorism, they were cutting off a part of the UK that was acting like a medieval state and was already a drain on the British economy.

There apparently are some Unionists who think they are the lost tribe of Israel!

Yes Nelson McAusland, our Culture Minister :/
Just look at the Vanguard symbol

It actually makes me wonder why neo-Nazis never tried to fund the IRA.

 

[Arachnid]

Yes but Ulster had been effectively independent since 1920. That's why Britain did not force anti-secterian reforms earlier, because there was a "gentleman's agreement" as my politics teacher put it, where Westminster did not inerefere in the affairs of Stormount.

There is a difference between looking the other way over general low level, endemic discrimination and looking the other way while the Ulster-SS start lynching people with the approval of Stormont.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

There is a difference between looking the other way over general low level, endemic discrimination and looking the other way while the Ulster-SS start lynching people with the approval of Stormont.

They also "looked the other way" during the riots of 1921, which were pretty much equivalent to those in '69. Not to mention that they did fuck all in the early 60's during the IRA border campaign.

The worst security forces did at the start was follow or ignore orders to engage protesters. They weren't rounding anyone up for labour camps.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

The terrorist campaign hadn't started yet, it was Civil Rights campaigners getting the shite kicked out of the by the RUC untill 1969, then when the government tried to force through reforms all the Loyalists yelled "TRAITORS!!!!!" and proceeded to go fucking insane.
They weren't abandoning anyone to terrorism, they were cutting off a part of the UK that was acting like a medieval state and was already a drain on the British economy.

But I'm talking about the post 74 Wilson Government, the IRA campaign was in full swing by then. I do agree with you that Britain should have been taking a much firmer line on NI from day one, actually I believe Stormont should never have existed, the Unionists didn't want it, they were opposed to Home Rule in any form, the British set it up seemingly as a way of getting the Irish question out of the way. When the Unionists got their parliament they then proceeded to treat the Catholics like shit for 50 years, Britain did nothing primarily because of "The Convention," a piece of parliamentary etiquette that Arachnid referred to above. It was only when Gerry Fitt took his Westminster seat after 1959, despite the opposition of Nationalists, that he was able to get NI matters debated at Westminster. Even then most British politicians were unaware of what was going on, people like Callaghan and even Heath and Whitelaw were shocked when they found out. Had Britain not left NI to it's own devices this would never have happened.

Yes Nelson McAusland, our Culture Minister :/
Just look at the Vanguard symbol

It actually makes me wonder why neo-Nazis never tried to fund the IRA.

Just a slight nitpick, McCausland is now Social Development Minister

But you're right, he is a total gobshite.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

But I'm talking about the post 74 Wilson Government, the IRA campaign was in full swing by then. I do agree with you that Britain should have been taking a much firmer line on NI from day one, actually I believe Stormont should never have existed, the Unionists didn't want it, they were opposed to Home Rule in any form, the British set it up seemingly as a way of getting the Irish question out of the way. When the Unionists got their parliament they then proceeded to treat the Catholics like shit for 50 years, Britain did nothing primarily because of "The Convention," a piece of parliamentary etiquette that Arachnid referred to above. It was only when Gerry Fitt took his Westminster seat after 1959, despite the opposition of Nationalists, that he was able to get NI matters debated at Westminster. Even then most British politicians were unaware of what was going on, people like Callaghan and even Heath and Whitelaw were shocked when they found out. Had Britain not left NI to it's own devices this would never have happened.

Actually the Stormount parliament was enacted in the hope that eventually Dublin and Belfast could reconcile. Honestly, when you see all the meticulous planning Lloyd George and Collins put into coming up with a solution for Ulster you'd want to tear your hair out in frustration.
Anglo-Irish Council to discuss unification.
Tax cuts for northern businesses under a Dublin parliament, but tax rises should they stay with Westminster.
And finally the Border Commission, cutting off areas of "Nationalist majorities" in an attempt to make Northern Ireland economically enviable.

None of it worked

Just a slight nitpick, McCausland is now Social Development Minister

But you're right, he is a total gobshite.

They must have moved him then

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Actually the Stormount parliament was enacted in the hope that eventually Dublin and Belfast could reconcile. Honestly, when you see all the meticulous planning Lloyd George and Collins put into coming up with a solution for Ulster you'd want to tear your hair out in frustration.
Anglo-Irish Council to discuss unification.
Tax cuts for northern businesses under a Dublin parliament, but tax rises should they stay with Westminster.
And finally the Border Commission, cutting off areas of "Nationalist majorities" in an attempt to make Northern Ireland economically

That's why Collins' death was such a turning point, James Craig got on well with him and given a few years to let passions cool they may have come to some agreement.

Irish history is full of lost opportunities like this.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

That's why Collins' death was such a turning point, James Craig got on well with him and given a few years to let passions cool they may have come to some agreement.

Irish history is full of lost opportunities like this.

To be fair, he was planning a major guerilla campaign in the North using veterans from the War of Independence, the Civil War got in the way.

 

[Observer]

It was only when Gerry Fitt took his Westminster seat after 1959, despite the opposition of Nationalists, that he was able to get NI matters debated at Westminster.

Fitt didn't win West Belfast until 1966, when he defeated James Kilfedder in a straight fight. The old Nationalist Party (the "pubocracy") had been moribund in Belfast since the 1940s, but its members had taken their seats in Westminster since at least 1945:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/people/mr-cahir-healy
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/people/mr-anthony-mulvey
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/people/mr-michael-oneill

Sinn Féin won the two Fermanagh and Tyrone seats in 1955 but their candidates were disqualified, and from then until 1966 Westminster representation had been a Unionist monopoly.