General Gott not shot down and killed in August 1942

Supposing Gott did not get on that plane. perhaps because something came up at the last minute. It does not matter why he does not take that plane, only that he does not take the flight and therefore lives to command 8th Army in combat

1 Does he still defeat Rommel at Alam Halfa and Alamein?

2 Does he havee a better relationship with US commanders including Patton?

3 Will he get command of Overlord instead of Montgomery. Will he fight the battle differently from Montgomery? Are the results likely to be similar, better or worse

4 Would he still launch Market Garden and, if so, does he do it differently?
 
Supposing Gott did not get on that plane. perhaps because something came up at the last minute. It does not matter why he does not take that plane, only that he does not take the flight and therefore lives to command 8th Army in combat

1 Does he still defeat Rommel at Alam Halfa and Alamein?

2 Does he havee a better relationship with US commanders including Patton?

3 Will he get command of Overlord instead of Montgomery. Will he fight the battle differently from Montgomery? Are the results likely to be similar, better or worse

4 Would he still launch Market Garden and, if so, does he do it differently?
Since everybody ended up glad that he was dead. I can only assume the Western Desert campaign goes badly until he is replaced.
I think he survived the initial plane crash, too.
 
James Holland's book on North Africa, Together We Stand, on this issue, p248:

on 3 Aug '42
[Gott] ...told Brooke that he needed a rest, and added, 'I think what is required here is some new blood. I have tried out most of my ideas on the Boche. We want someone with new ideas and confidence in them'.
Churchill insisted, though, and Gott acquiesced.

I think Gott was right - he was exhausted, and a new broom was needed to get rid of the rubbish like Lumsden.

If Gott had got his rest, then he could have done well in Italy or NWE.
 
James Holland's book on North Africa, Together We Stand, on this issue, p248:

on 3 Aug '42
[Gott] ...told Brooke that he needed a rest, and added, 'I think what is required here is some new blood. I have tried out most of my ideas on the Boche. We want someone with new ideas and confidence in them'.
Churchill insisted, though, and Gott acquiesced.

But that's the funny thing though, isn't it? Nothing that Montgomery did was particularly novel. He just emphasised the basics - training, preparation, logistics and not mindlessly charging headlong on to anti-tank guns. Apart from Supercharge that is, but it still worked out in the end.

Probably the real difference was that he certainly had confidence in himself, and that rubbed off on the troops.
 
James Holland's book on North Africa, Together We Stand, on this issue, p248:

on 3 Aug '42
[Gott] ...told Brooke that he needed a rest, and added, 'I think what is required here is some new blood. I have tried out most of my ideas on the Boche. We want someone with new ideas and confidence in them'.
Churchill insisted, though, and Gott acquiesced.

I think Gott was right - he was exhausted, and a new broom was needed to get rid of the rubbish like Lumsden.

If Gott had got his rest, then he could have done well in Italy or NWE.

He might have held at Alam Halfa but, he might not have handled the Alamein offensive too well. Probably an offensive led by gott could have ended up looking like the fiascos of Operations Splendour, Bacon and Manhood in July 1942. If so then Gott is lkelly to end up being relieved of his command.

operation Torch probably forces Rommel to pull out of Egypt and it might well be Montgomery is appointed to replace Gott in 1942. In this case I doubt Gott will ever be given another army command but perhaps gets a corps in Italy or NW Europe. As for Montgomery, without Alamein he might not have the credibility to command Overlord
 
But that's the funny thing though, isn't it? Nothing that Montgomery did was particularly novel. He just emphasised the basics - training, preparation, logistics and not mindlessly charging headlong on to anti-tank guns. Apart from Supercharge that is, but it still worked out in the end. ....

Good point there. If you dig thought the literature you will find some strong indications the commanders, corps and division as well as Army, were not following 'best practice' as recognized by the Brit army in general. I read a complaint by one Captain dating to 1941, where he stated the training and combined arms tactics they had practiced in the UK were abandoned. Tanks operating without infantry or artillery support, advancing without reconnissance, artillery communications disconnect from senior HQ and the infantry or tanks. Division commanders were frequently bypassed by the corps HQ & the brigades fighting scattered and seperately.

In the case of the artillery complaint I've found some collaboration from other sources like the Journal of Royal Artillery.
 
Good point there. If you dig thought the literature you will find some strong indications the commanders, corps and division as well as Army, were not following 'best practice' as recognized by the Brit army in general. I read a complaint by one Captain dating to 1941, where he stated the training and combined arms tactics they had practiced in the UK were abandoned. Tanks operating without infantry or artillery support, advancing without reconnissance, artillery communications disconnect from senior HQ and the infantry or tanks. Division commanders were frequently bypassed by the corps HQ & the brigades fighting scattered and seperately.

In the case of the artillery complaint I've found some collaboration from other sources like the Journal of Royal Artillery.

Montgomery tightened up on training, doctrine and battle drills in 8th Army. See Monty: the making of a General by Nigel Hamilton and most books covering El Alameinfor that mattr. Whether, in the process he stifled initiative to much is another matter.

Gott would likewise have had to deal with Lumsden and Gatehouse some point.
 
operation Torch probably forces Rommel to pull out of Egypt and it might well be Montgomery is appointed to replace Gott in 1942. In this case I doubt Gott will ever be given another army command but perhaps gets a corps in Italy or NW Europe. As for Montgomery, without Alamein he might not have the credibility to command Overlord

Montgomery would be the commander of the British 1st Army in NW Africa - OTL he was in post 1 day before Gott's death resulted in him getting 8th Army. If Gott was replaced after a failed attack at El Alamein the book is wide open on his replacement. However Tripoli would probably have been taken from the west and whoever replaced Gott would not have got much glory.
 
Good point there. If you dig thought the literature you will find some strong indications the commanders, corps and division as well as Army, were not following 'best practice' as recognized by the Brit army in general. I read a complaint by one Captain dating to 1941, where he stated the training and combined arms tactics they had practiced in the UK were abandoned. Tanks operating without infantry or artillery support, advancing without reconnissance, artillery communications disconnect from senior HQ and the infantry or tanks. Division commanders were frequently bypassed by the corps HQ & the brigades fighting scattered and separately.
That was an army-wide failing thanks to an ingrained culture in the inter-war years that was highly sceptical of having just one approved way of doing things, to the extent that even standard drills were looked on with suspicion, as it was felt that it would inhibit improvisation. This however was completely undercut by an insistence on highly regulated top-down orders during operations that tightly controlled things with a reliance on written orders that planned things step-by-step to the n-th degree. IIRC there wasn't a central School of Infantry until one was established a year or two into the war. This meant that different units such as divisions, or even brigades if independent ones, all taught their own ways of doing things and even their own spin on what little central policy there was.

Another related failing was thanks to being used on imperial policing duties the army was spread out around the globe and often didn't operate above brigade, or even battalion, level aside from a few places so that they never got to practice together as larger forces or develop the necessary staff experience to do so. The Staff College at Camberley concentrated mostly on the strategic level with very little thought given to the operational, plus they only turned out something like fifty or so graduates a year so each division in the early years of the war would be lucky to have a commander and maybe two or three other officers that had been on their staff. The regular middle-ranking officers that were expected to step up to run the newly raised units hadn't had the training or experience of staff work necessary so it created poor results. Until the British army had spent a couple of very tough years learning on the job they generally had staffs that were inadequate to the tasks they were given and were seemingly more a large grouping of brigades than effective massed divisions or corps.

As late as 1941 or 1942 I think it was someone at the War Office wrote an intelligence assessment on the Wehrmacht. I can't remember the exact details but it basically repeated the mantra that the British army was best at improvisational thinking during operations whilst the Germans might give the impression of such but in reality it was because they merely had a thousand and one drills they had learned and robotically followed, completely missing the whole concept of Auftragstaktik. If it wasn't so comical it would have made you cry. I'll stop rambling on now. :)


Montgomery tightened up on training, doctrine and battle drills in 8th Army. See Monty: The Making of a General by Nigel Hamilton and most books covering El Alameinfor that mattr. Whether, in the process he stifled initiative to much is another matter.
Considering the up-hill battle he was facing, and the amount of time it usually takes to change an ingrained culture of many years, I don't think he could have done much different. Maybe allowed a little more initiative, but at that point your really just arguing over degrees considering how little freedom he, and later army as a whole, seems to have been operating under. That's my opinion at least.
 
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Montgomery would be the commander of the British 1st Army in NW Africa - OTL he was in post 1 day before Gott's death resulted in him getting 8th Army. If Gott was replaced after a failed attack at El Alamein the book is wide open on his replacement. However Tripoli would probably have been taken from the west and whoever replaced Gott would not have got much glory.

Generals can be transferred even if lready in command of another army. As you say though whoever commanded 8th Army would have little glory or credit, In facrt, under these circumstances a US general might well be credited with the final defeat of the Afrika Korps.
 
That was an army-wide failing thanks to an ingrained culture in the inter-war years that was highly sceptical of having just one approved way of doing things, to the extent that even standard drills were looked on with suspicion, as it was felt that it would inhibit improvisation. This however was completely undercut by an insistence on highly regulated top-down orders during operations that tightly controlled things with a reliance on written orders that planned things step-by-step to the n-th degree. IIRC there wasn't a central School of Infantry until one was established a year or two into the war. This meant that different units such as divisions, or even brigades if independent ones, all taught their own ways of doing things and even their own spin on what little central policy there was.

Another related failing was thanks to being used on imperial policing duties the army was spread out around the globe and often didn't operate above brigade, or even battalion, level aside from a few places so that they never got to practice together as larger forces or develop the necessary staff experience to do so. The Staff College at Camberley concentrated mostly on the strategic level with very little thought given to the operational, plus they only turned out something like fifty or so graduates a year so each division in the early years of the war would be lucky to have a commander and maybe two or three other officers that had been on their staff. The regular middle-ranking officers that were expected to step up to run the newly raised units hadn't had the training or experience of staff work necessary so it created poor results. Until the British army had spent a couple of very tough years learning on the job they generally had staffs that were inadequate to the tasks they were given and were seemingly more a large grouping of brigades than effective massed divisions or corps.

As late as 1941 or 1942 I think it was someone at the War Office wrote an intelligence assessment on the Wehrmacht. I can't remember the exact details but it basically repeated the mantra that the British army was best at improvisational thinking during operations whilst the Germans might give the impression of such but in reality it was because they merely had a thousand and one drills they had learned and robotically followed, completely missing the whole concept of Auftragstaktik. If it wasn't so comical it would have made you cry. I'll stop rambling on now. :)



Considering the up-hill battle he was facing, and the amount of time it usually takes to change an ingrained culture of many years, I don't think he could have done much different. Maybe allowed a little more initiative, but at that point your really just arguing over degrees considering how little freedom he, and later army as a whole, seems to have been operating under. That's my opinion at least.

One of the really significant failings of 8th Army Tactics was the contant tank charges such as at Knightsbridge (Battle of Gazala)Operations were often poorly planned and this continuedwith Operation Bacon and Splendour during the Alamein campaign itself (Pendulum of War: Th hree Battles of Alamein Niall Barr)

As has been discussed previously Gott probably had the qualifications to command but he was tired and therefor less likely to be succesful in doing wha was needed.Montgomery on the other hand was a new broom and probably achieved more than Gott would have done before Alamein
 

Redbeard

Banned
In German Gott means "God" and at least it would have been remarkable that the German soldiers on their belt buckles had the text: "Gott mit uns" (God with us). It was a slogan of the old Prussian royal house and went back to early 18th century but was carried on by the German army and even by the federal police until 1970s.

Before his crash much hope was put in Gott, but I agree with many posters here that the 8th Army first of all needed the self-confidence boost which Monty was so excellent in giving. A tired Gott could easily have been a disaster here, no matter his operational capabilities.

The British (or US) army, and certainly not Monty, never came even close to being masters of improvisation. The paper needed for a bataljon to cross a simple ditch was overwhelming but all in all the Wallies were better served with a stiff methodical approach where the increasing material superiority could be applied instead of risky swift operations.

I could fear that Gott if in command of 8th army would try to relieve the pressure on his shoulders by som operational excellence. On a good day it could end the campaign favourably, but on any other it would jeopardise a certain victory by just applying increasing force.
 
In German Gott means "God" and at least it would have been remarkable that the German soldiers on their belt buckles had the text: "Gott mit uns" (God with us). It was a slogan of the old Prussian royal house and went back to early 18th century but was carried on by the German army and even by the federal police until 1970s.

Before his crash much hope was put in Gott, but I agree with many posters here that the 8th Army first of all needed the self-confidence boost which Monty was so excellent in giving. A tired Gott could easily have been a disaster here, no matter his operational capabilities.

The British (or US) army, and certainly not Monty, never came even close to being masters of improvisation. The paper needed for a bataljon to cross a simple ditch was overwhelming but all in all the Wallies were better served with a stiff methodical approach where the increasing material superiority could be applied instead of risky swift operations.

I could fear that Gott if in command of 8th army would try to relieve the pressure on his shoulders by som operational excellence. On a good day it could end the campaign favourably, but on any other it would jeopardise a certain victory by just applying increasing force.

I think Gott would probably still have won Alam Halfa, much as Montgomery did but only if he managed to restrain the British armour from needless counter attacks. Even Montgomery was not entirely succesful on this point.

El Alamein itself was a battle that put Montgomery under significant pressure. Gott woul have had to wemploy a similar plan - there was not much alternative to the frontal attack hrough th minefields. However, given Gott's fatigue he miight have broken under the pressure resulting in the failure of the offensive and his relief from command. If however Gott was able to take the pressure he would likely have won the battle, just as Montgmery did and it would have been Gott in that case who made a name for himself.
 
I think Gott would probably still have won Alam Halfa, much as Montgomery did but only if he managed to restrain the British armour from needless counter attacks. Even Montgomery was not entirely succesful on this point.

While on the surface there appear to be little difference between Montgomery's dispositions for Alam Halfa and the previous Dorman Smith 'modern defensive battle'; there was a huge difference in philosophy. The previous plan involved a lightly held front line, with all infantry mobile so that they could move to various alternate positions on command. While it might look good on paper it could well have been a disaster in practice against Rommel.

The key question is whether Gott would have the strength of character to throw out a plan prepared by those with extensive desert experience.
 
While on the surface there appear to be little difference between Montgomery's dispositions for Alam Halfa and the previous Dorman Smith 'modern defensive battle'; there was a huge difference in philosophy. The previous plan involved a lightly held front line, with all infantry mobile so that they could move to various alternate positions on command. While it might look good on paper it could well have been a disaster in practice against Rommel.

The key question is whether Gott would have the strength of character to throw out a plan prepared by those with extensive desert experience.

Gott also had extensive desert experience
 
Exactly - does he throw out a plan made by those he knew, and adopt a radically different approach; or continue with tactics that had only had sporadic success?

Probably he will continue with the defence plan made by Aukinleck and Dorman-Smith
 

Sior

Banned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Hobart

They would have been better keeping Hobart as Armoured training.

In 1934, Hobart became Brigadier of the first permanent armoured brigade in Britain and Inspector Royal Tank Corps. He had to fight for resources for his command because the British Army was still dominated by conservative cavalry officers. Quite ironically, German General Heinz Guderian kept abreast of Hobart's writings using, at his own expense, someone to translate all the articles being published in Britain.[4]
In 1937, Hobart was made Deputy Director of Staff Duties (Armoured Fighting Vehicles) and later Director of Military Training. He was promoted to Major-General. In 1938, Hobart was sent to form and train "Mobile Force (Egypt)" although a local general resisted his efforts. While sometimes referred to as the "Mobile Farce" by critics, Mobile Force (Egypt) survived and later became the 7th Armoured Division, famous as the "Desert Rats".[


Sir Archibald Wavell dismissed Hobart into retirement in 1940, based on hostile War Office information due to his "unconventional" ideas about armoured warfare. Hobart joined the Local Defence Volunteers (precursor to the Home Guard) as a lance-corporal and was charged with the defence of his home town, Chipping Campden. "At once, Chipping Campden became a hedgehog of bristling defiance", and Hobart was promoted to become Deputy Area Organiser.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Hobart#cite_note-6
 
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