General Christ
- Thread starter brokenman
- Start date
The rebellion meets minor successes in the beginning before the Great Judean curbstomp of 30 AD. Basically the Judeans get slaughtered like the did in 79 AD. You just don't fuck with the early Roman Empire.
archaeogeek
Banned
Crushed mercilessly. You're talking about a fifth rate tribe against one of the great empires. I recommend reading Agricola.
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Turtledove wrote a story with this as his POD, I believe.
Barring God intervening on behalf of His Son (we normally ignore the divine implications) and smiting the Romans with 27 plagues, it's the destruction of Judea and the removal of the Jews early. Christianity is a sect of Judaism, possibly growing into the dominant one, and the Roman Empire collapses more or less as IOTL. OK, maybe Claudius has a bit more money to work with when he invades Brittania, but that's all I can think of.
The question here is, with Christianity largely removed from the picture, what religion will take over in Rome? Greco-Roman paganism wasn't renowned for its monastic traditions, which IOTL helped preserve Roman and Greek scrolls and learning until centralized government returned in Europe. Would other cults have such a monastic tradition?
Barring God intervening on behalf of His Son (we normally ignore the divine implications) and smiting the Romans with 27 plagues, it's the destruction of Judea and the removal of the Jews early. Christianity is a sect of Judaism, possibly growing into the dominant one, and the Roman Empire collapses more or less as IOTL. OK, maybe Claudius has a bit more money to work with when he invades Brittania, but that's all I can think of.
The question here is, with Christianity largely removed from the picture, what religion will take over in Rome? Greco-Roman paganism wasn't renowned for its monastic traditions, which IOTL helped preserve Roman and Greek scrolls and learning until centralized government returned in Europe. Would other cults have such a monastic tradition?
Snake Featherston
Banned
Gets stomped by the Romans and is as well-known as Simon Bar Kochba, and early Christians are confused with the Sicarii, with a possible irony in Judas Iscariot being considered his right-hand man even though Judas the Sicarii really killed Christ for his insistence on seeking an unwinnable battle just as the Romans marched into Jerusalem.
Snake Featherston
Banned
My guess is the Cult of Sol Invictus. A dark horse candidate might be the Cult of Elagabal.
archaeogeek
Banned
My guess is the Cult of Sol Invictus. A dark horse candidate might be the Cult of Elagabal.
The second would be awesome although IIRC it was basically a Palmyrene clique ruling the empire under the emperor of the namesake. Plus having the transsexual emperor/ress survive in Rome would be sort of nifty as a historical footnote
- although utterly ASB Snake Featherston
Banned
The second would be awesome although IIRC it was basically a Palmyrene clique ruling the empire under the emperor of the namesake. Plus having the transsexual emperor/ress survive in Rome would be sort of nifty as a historical footnote
Eh, it'd be *a* Middle Eastern religion taking over the Roman Empire......
archaeogeek
Banned
Eh, it'd be *a* Middle Eastern religion taking over the Roman Empire......
There were so many and they were all lining up to do it anyway - Isis, Elagabal, Mythras, Christ
- hell Hadrian almost created his own from his lover Antinous.Mithraism is a good candidate and already very diffused in the army.
Also some topics (death and resurrection of a divine human being) were present in it which we know had a great success in OTL
Also some topics (death and resurrection of a divine human being) were present in it which we know had a great success in OTL
Yep. Now, instead of being crucified in the company of 2 thieves, Jesus is crucified in the company of a couple of thousand rebels.
(I assuming, of course, that there are no 12 Legions of Angels. Miracles are limited to the occasional logistics and healing. In which case, Roman curb stomp. Christianity is very different, assuming its not completely suppressed by the Romans.)
I think whatever religious tradition takes over, some kind of monastic tradition is likely. The ascetic, monastic turn in late antiquity wasn't fueled by anything specifically Christian and we know from Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, and Islamic examples that monasticism is a natural form of religious expression, not an institution unique to Christianity.
wolf_brother
Banned
He did; I have a copy of it in my library actually.
Quoting from the Turtledove Wiki;
Ignoring the fact that theologically this sentence is paradoxical as Jesus becoming a general would entirely defeat his reason for existence, which was to teach the Jews a new (pacifist among other virtues) way of life, if we assumed that God actually wanted to send an alt-Jesus who was born to be a military commander and a temporal King, surely we have to assume that God would make him successful? Presumably to prove His divinity, He would also have to be wildly successful beyond the realm of human capacity, based on the way that He's not now proving his divinity by dedicating His life to healing the sick and multiplying bread and fish...
It doesn't really make sense to postulate that God-on-Earth could fail at His task. What is the point in being God if you aren't able to pick the perfect time, place and circumstances, and be perfect in everything you do? If alt-Jesus isn't successful then surely He is not God, and if He isn't God, then surely He doesn't have the same levels of charisma and ability as to be able to rise to be so powerful in the first place?
So what we have here is a quasi-theological ASB discussion?
Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument seems to ignore the possibility that the State Gods of the Roman Empire (Jupiter, Juno, Venus, Minerva and Mars) may act counterbalance any divine aid that Hashem would provide to "General Christ" if they discover that Hashem has been providing overt divine intervention.
One way I think this could be envisioned is "General Christ" leading his Army of Zion against the vastly superior Roman legions and almost winning the day purely on the strength of his own personal fighting prowess. (Picture Sauron fighting the forces of the Last Alliance at the start of The Fellowship of the Ring.) Then at the critical moment something happens - avatars of Minerva and Mars appear or whatever - and the battle is decided by non-divine combat - resulting in the curb-stomping others have mentioned.
Hero of Canton
***Oops! I kind of assumed that this thread was an ASB exception. Otherwise I'd not have invoked the Roman Big-5.***
Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument seems to ignore the possibility that the State Gods of the Roman Empire (Jupiter, Juno, Venus, Minerva and Mars) may act counterbalance any divine aid that Hashem would provide to "General Christ" if they discover that Hashem has been providing overt divine intervention.
One way I think this could be envisioned is "General Christ" leading his Army of Zion against the vastly superior Roman legions and almost winning the day purely on the strength of his own personal fighting prowess. (Picture Sauron fighting the forces of the Last Alliance at the start of The Fellowship of the Ring.) Then at the critical moment something happens - avatars of Minerva and Mars appear or whatever - and the battle is decided by non-divine combat - resulting in the curb-stomping others have mentioned.
Hero of Canton
***Oops! I kind of assumed that this thread was an ASB exception. Otherwise I'd not have invoked the Roman Big-5.***
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If I may, Isaiah 43 verse 10:
The very existence of the Judaic religions denies that there can be any other gods. If you bring the Roman gods into play, you kind of collapse the very existence and meaning of Christianity theology.
That said, this whole topic kind of collapses Christian theology, so I'll just move on and leave you guys to your discussion. I just wanted to raise that point.
You're taking that out of context. That's figurative language, something the Bible is rife with, and is Jesus' description of how he will tear the Jewish community apart by the creation of the New Covenant: it is his prophecy of how Christendom will attack Judaism and vice versa. If I may quote some other sections from that passage (Matthew 10):
And the end of that chapter, which is the very reason Jesus used the sword imagery, and is the basis for the Christian sanctification of martyrs:
But yeah, I said I'd let you guys get on with it and I don't want to sidetrack you so leave you to it now.
If you assume that the object is to have Christ crucified, which is a pretty good assumption from a traditional Christian viewpoint, then an unsuccessful war where Christ does not use miracles to decisively tilt the balance in his favor meets the objective.