Frivolous WI: Charles II Stuart and James of York both die during Great Fire of London

Valena

Valena

A rather frivolous (though not ASB, massive fires are a b*tch) WI that I thought of last night when watching a BBC documentary on Charles II.

Assume, that during firefighting efforts during Great Fire of London some accidents happen that mortally wound/cripple the King and the heir presumptive, so that by end of September they are both dead. Otherwise the fire ends roughly as OTL.

The only surviving legitimate adult male royal turns out to be Prince Rupert, who was at sea with fleet as of September 1666. He is presumed to preside in Regency Council over TTL James II, aka 3-years old James Stuart, Duke of Cambridge. If James and his brother, Charles of Kendal (born on July 4, assumed to inherit his father's title of Duke of York) die as OTL, then the regency is for Mary II.

I assume that there would be an attempt to reach peace settlement with the Dutch. Also, I assume that those not pleased with child King/Queen would try to prop James of Monmouth as "true" James II, since Charles II is not alive to protest that he never married to Monmouth mother.

Otherwise, please discuss.
 
Valena

Valena

The Regency Council, I assume, would be pretty much Clarendon ministry. Though Rupert disliked Edward Hyde enough to prevent him going all "Duke of Somerset during Edward VI reign"; out of members of this ministry he was close to Albemarle & Ormonde. I don't remember whether he was already a business partner with then-Lord Ashley by 1666.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Would there be pressure on Rupert to marry? I mean, yeah, he's still reasonably far from the throne, but it's not as though he could carry on as OTL as the leader of the govt.
 
Valena

Valena

Kellan Sullivan said:
Would there be pressure on Rupert to marry? I mean, yeah, he's still reasonably far from the throne, but it's not as though he could carry on as OTL as the leader of the govt.
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The situation would be not unlike Rupert's grandnephew Philippe d'Orleans Regency in France, only with much less decadent Prince Regent, who also is NOT the heir presumptive in case something happens to young King/Queen.

As for pressure to marry, I think that situation that caused the meeting between Rupert and Peg Hughes OTL is highly unlikely to occur TTL, so if there is a cooldown of relations between him and Frances Bard, then he can marry... to whom? I can't think of shortlist as of 1673, but offers are welcome.
 
Valena

Valena

I'm thinking of a Danish wife in this case - such a Princess is a Protestant, well connected yet not directly connected to any of Great Powers (France, Netherlands, Spain/Austrian block), can be accepted as quasi-proxy Princess by any of them.

A marriage to Archduchess (one of Leopold I half-sisters) or a Nassau Countess (Dowager Countess of Nassau-Dietz or her daughter) is not too sensible, and France has nothing to offer in this case anyways (Mary of Modena is not really suitable). Not to mention that as of 1666 Britain is at war with France as well, and French would be likely, just as OTL, be blamed of arson.
 
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Kellan Sullivan

What differences might there be between a Rupert-led Regency and OTL? No scares about James, duke of York's Catholicism tainting his kids, I would imagine.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Monmouth wouldn't have the following he did OTL (i.e. the ones who wanted Charles to block James II from the throne, or who weren't comfortable with a Catholic idiot like James taking power. An idiot they can and had suffered before - see Henry VI - but someone who was both untrustworthy (due to his papistry) and incompetent? Not gonna fly).

As to Cambridge/Kendal's survival - shouldn't be too difficult, just keep one or both away from wherever they would've caught the plague/smallpox/measles that killed them. Or better yet, let Dr. Frazier either know what he's looking at or get a second opinion - this is the king of England dammit!

Kendal died of convulsions so IDK if anything can be done about that.

However, one thing I can see happening is John Q Public going on a witchhunt for the papist/French/Dutch/lizardmen assassins that killed the king and duke of York in the fire. And Anne Hyde might be blocked from her sons if her conversion to Catholicism becomes public at this time. People might fear a second Henriette Marie.

What happens to Catherine of Bragança is a valid question. This isn't like in 1685 where she's 45 and established as barren/menopausal. She's only 26 (oldish) and had a miscarriage in February 1666. Likely as not she might be used by whoever to the most gain. A 1670 marriage to Monsieur would be fun if Minette still dies.
 
Valena

Valena

JonasResende said:
What happens to Catherine of Bragança is a valid question. This isn't like in 1685 where she's 45 and established as barren/menopausal. She's only 26 (oldish) and had a miscarriage in February 1666. Likely as not she might be used by whoever to the most gain. A 1670 marriage to Monsieur would be fun if Minette still dies.
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It would be interesting if the head regent (aka Prince Rupert) marries her, if only to prevent her dowry going away from Britain, and she has established herself as not proselyting unlike her mother-in-law Henriette Maria.
 

Cornelis

Question : did James died before Charles ? If he did not, he was King, meaning Dowager Queen Anne, if living, had a shot at the Regency. She would be refused, of course, but it would fuel the "Popish Plot to kill the King" narrative.
 
Valena

Valena

Anne Hyde is not publicly Papist by 1666, her coming-out happened only a few years later.
For sake of no confusion let's say James dies in the initial fire-fighting effort, Charles gets wounded and dies from complications by the end of September, but manages to leave rough instructions on regency for his nephew.
 

Cornelis

Valena said:
Anne Hyde is not publicly Papist by 1666, her coming-out happened only a few years later.
For sake of no confusion let's say James dies in the initial fire-fighting effort, Charles gets wounded and dies from complications by the end of September, but manages to leave rough instructions on regency for his nephew.
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OK.

Also, Louis XIV would try to gain more if he felt the English weak. Saint Kitts ? or Montserrat ? could be fun to see an "Irish Free Island" under the overlordship of the French. At least until the British comeback.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Who would be the ACTUAL power - Hyde for his grandkids (a la duke of Somerset for Edward VI) or Rupert? And how much say is Anne going to have in this state of affairs? Just in her kids' upbringing or while England doesn't have a history of Queen Regents a la France, (Scotland does) or actual power? Even if her dad's the one pulling the strings (mind I don't think Anne is one to be any man's puppet) we could see the court crystalizing around the Hydes and Rupert, Queen Catherine and the rest of the Cabal
 
Valena

Valena

Hyde and Rupert disliked each other. Rupert disliked intrigue, so it is unlikely that he would actively work to overthrow him. OTOH the Duke of Somerset was only a century before, and Hyde is looked down by many as an upstart commoner. Until 1670ies it would be rather messy, then... Anne is just as likely to develop her cancer as OTL.

But then, in 1666-1667 the more urgent thing would be to end the war on the most favorable terms possible.

Hyde would try to go for power grab, especially if in January 1667 Rupert, like OTL, gets bedridden for a long time due to the head surgery (he completely recovered from it only by June, and this is considered one of the reasons for English piss-poor performance in 1667). Consequences? At his own cost.
 
Valena

Valena

I'm thinking that if Hyde overplays his hand in 1667, his position may turn out to be as shaky as OTL, King's grandfather or not. I also remember that Anne Hyde was not a great fan of her father, insisting that he is to adhere to etiquette in her presence.
 
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