French Jerusalem

Here's a map of an alternate division of the Ottoman Empire proposed by the UK during WW1 (I was searching for info on Mav's scenario). What effects does this alternate division have?

To nail down the specifics, which are overly confusing:

What effect would the following Franco-British division, including a French enclave around Jerusalem, have, assuming that this map accurately delineates the French and British occupations of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of an as-OTL World War One? Please confine discussion to these regions.


Different Palestine.png
 
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The context of the book in which the map appeared.

Anything else need spelling out?

The only other confusing part is why there doesn't appear to be a border between Russia/USSR and Persia, but that's not particularly relevant to the topic at hand.

Anyway, major repercussions depend I guess on how the French feel about Zionism, which I have absolutely no idea about.
 
I would presume that the area of Palestine is, as with the Sykes-Picot Agreement, intended to be internationally-controlled. The Agreement spelled out that the area in question was to be dealt with thus:

That in the brown area there shall be established an international administration, the form of which is to be decided upon after consultation with Russia, and subsequently in consultation with the other allies, and the representatives of the sheriff of Mecca.

I think what you're looking at there is something similar.

Edit: I'd speculate further but I don't know enough specifics about regional geography to be sure of the repercussions. That Russia gets such a big chunk is the most curious thing about the map posted.
 
I would presume that the area of Palestine is, as with the Sykes-Picot Agreement, intended to be internationally-controlled. The Agreement spelled out that the area in question was to be dealt with thus:

I think what you're looking at there is something similar.

You presume incorrectly. I have read the context of the book in question, and a French Jerusalem was being debated. I am asking what the effects of a French enclave including Jerusalem would be, per my OP!
 
You presume incorrectly. I have read the context of the book in question, and a French Jerusalem was being debated. I am asking what the effects of a French enclave including Jerusalem would be, per my OP!

Well, that's strange.

The most interesting thing will be the reactions of the Arabs to this plan. According to the book, were they consulted regarding this alternate version? I think that might be the most interesting thing.

Presumably the French, meanwhile, would have a more open immigration policy, if Lebanon is anything to go by. This might lead to a more cosmopolitan Palestine, in which there would likely be fewer ethnic tensions due to a more eclectic mix of immigrants.

Edit: interestingly enough, the Sykes-Picot Agreement as adopted does not specify a Russian sphere of influence. That the Russians get much of historical Armenia is quite intriguing, making me wonder what the context for this draft provision was, and why such a large area would be ceded to them...
 
Well, that's strange.

The most interesting thing will be the reactions of the Arabs to this plan. According to the book, were they consulted regarding this alternate version? I think that might be the most interesting thing.

Presumably the French, meanwhile, would have a more open immigration policy, if Lebanon is anything to go by. This might lead to a more cosmopolitan Palestine, in which there would likely be fewer ethnic tensions due to a more eclectic mix of immigrants.

They don't appear to have been consulted, though as this proposal was only in the planning stages, I doubt they ever got a look at it.
 
Considering the history of French colonialism, its possible French Jerusalem could turn into a situation like Algeria.

No Balfour Declaration I'm assuming unless the French do something similar.

What would be interesting is if Germany goes down the same path as OTL, defeating France and essentially turning French Jerusalem into a Nazi German Jerusalem.
 
A french Jerusalem wil become very quickly a proto jewish state.

France didn't have particular interests to be diplomatic to the Arabs.

And France was rather jewish friendly by integrating north african Jews as French citzens and being a primary target of immigration from Jews from Central and Eastern Europe.

So the French will have less difficulties to autorize jewish immigration rather than the British... And if the French adopted the same policy as in French North Africa, Jews born on these territories will become quickly full rights french citizens...

And of course, after June 1940, French Jerusalem will be the first french colony becoming Free French, Lebanon and Syria will quickly follow...
 
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And of course, after June 1940, French Jerusalem will be the first french colony becoming Free French, Lebanon and Syria will quickly follow...

Wouldn't German occupation of Jerusalem be a MAJOR condition in the French surrender?
 
You presume incorrectly. I have read the context of the book in question, and a French Jerusalem was being debated. I am asking what the effects of a French enclave including Jerusalem would be, per my OP!

Do you mean like how the Old City has an Armenian Quarter, a Jewish Quarter, a Christian Quarter, and a Muslim Quarter (the size of an oreo)? Do you mean for them to half part of the exterior? Might as well go through with the idea of giving the Americans Palestine as a Mandate.
 
No Balfour Declaration I'm assuming unless the French do something similar.
Well there could still be a mini-Balfour Declaration that would cover the same area as in our timeline it would just be without the French enclave.


And of course, after June 1940, French Jerusalem will be the first french colony becoming Free French, Lebanon and Syria will quickly follow...
Why does the Jerusalem enclave make Lebanon and Syria automatically roll over and join the Free French? It's cut off from them by British territory that seems to have roughly the same borders as our timeline so a more logical assumption I think would be for the Jerusalem enclave to declare for the Free French, throwing open their doors to any escaping Jews that make it (assuming that Jewish emigration has been much more open under the French and they have the numbers and influence to make it happen) with Lebanon and Syria staying Vichy controlled until the Syria-Lebanon campaign kicks off. Depending on the size of the Jewish population in the Jerusalem enclave could provide a fair bit of manpower for the Free French forces during Operation Exporter and later.


Totally unrelated but if this division had stayed in place until WW2 might this not push the Turks into the Axis camp? When Greece gets invaded I could see them taking the chance to take back Smyrna unilaterally. Likewise when Germany invades the Soviet Union do you think they might take the chance of re-occupying the Russian zone? I was going to suggest they offer the Nazis transit rights through to the Caucasus in return for help in reclaiming the Russian zone and forcing Vichy France to return the area around Adana in the south-east and Italy their zone in the south-west but that might be pushing things a bit much.
 
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Totally unrelated but if this division had stayed in place until WW2 might this not push the Turks into the Axis camp? When Greece gets invaded I could see them taking the chance to take back Smyrna unilaterally. Likewise when Germany invades the Soviet Union do you think they might take the chance of re-occupying the Russian zone? I was going to suggest they offer the Nazis transit rights through to the Caucasus in return for help in reclaiming the Russian zone and forcing Vichy France to return the area around Adana in the south-east and Italy their zone in the south-west but that might be pushing things a bit much.
The Russian zone is unlikely to last until WW2 because the Turks will knock it off during the Civil War. Neither the Whites nor the Reds are going to commit many troops to hold it what with the Rodina at stake. Moreover it is not going to turn into a sort of Taiwan because a) the hostillities mentioned above and b) an army can be marched across the Caucasus Mountains to take it out.
 
Keep in mind that with that ITtalian part of Turkey Italy might think they got a decent chunk of land from the war and might go for another. There is also the far more important issue of whether it is the New Turks or the Sultan in charge here.
 
I've been looking at how the French handled Algeria and Tunisia, and specifically the Jewish populations there. The sentiment seems mostly to have been, "We don't particularly like them, but at least they're white!" Similarly, the French have none of the pro-Arab feelings that the British have, so I strongly suspect we'll see unrestrained Jewish immigration to the region...probably coupled with some Arab immigration from Syria and Lebanon, but not all together that much.

The main problem is that the vast majority of existing Zionist settlements at the time exist outside of the designated French zone, and so the question becomes whether the Jews already there will migrate into the French region, or whether Zionism will continue apace in both. The British may possibly just declare the entire Mandate of Palestine (or whatever) to be part of the new Hashemite emirate (which will probably be called Jordan as be OTL, but could well take the title Palestine. In either case, less emphasis on Jewish immigration to the region will result in less legislation against it - I suspect there will be modest Jewish immigration even to the British parts of the region (notably Tel Aviv, the Jezrael Valley, and the highlands just south of Haifa where all the oldest Zionist towns are).

In the inter-war period, the French are still going to love Lebanon with its Christians, but they might be even more neglectful to Syria, funneling some development into Palestine/Jerusalem. At any rate, the French Rothschilds are probably going to be even more involved with financing and supporting developing in the region - look to Ashdod or Ashkelon to become a major port city, and Jerusalem to become a European style, Jewish majority city by 1940.

During the War, P/J will definitely be either Free French or immediately occupied by the British - the leaders are probably smart enough to go the first way. On the other hand, the terrain means that a wily Vichy commander could probably keep the British out of Jerusalem for quite some time if he put his mind to it (Jerusalem is completely surrounded by surprisingly high hills, and there's basically only one major road in or out of the city).

The region will probably gain independence shortly after WWII, and I suspect it'll carry a government that somewhat resembles the trainwreck that is Lebanon, with quota systems and particular offices reserved for members of this or that community - I suspect Arabs, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews. The Bedouin might also get guaranteed representation, but I strongly doubt it. Where it goes from there depends on the precise demographic breakdown and how it evolves.

As for the dispensation of the British part...that depends completely on whether they give the whole thing to the emir (more likely IMO) or be sensitive to the fact that the region west of the Jordan is very Jewish. Something tells me that the socialist Zionists aren't going to want to be under an Arab monarchy.
 
Ahh yes, the crusader of Cilicia and Lebanon, along with the Frankish names they had until but two centuries or so past. Perhaps The French can sharpen the lines between all the different sects of Islam and Christianity much as they did on their administrative region maps of the Mandates?
 
The Russian zone is unlikely to last until WW2 because the Turks will knock it off during the Civil War. Neither the Whites nor the Reds are going to commit many troops to hold it what with the Rodina at stake. Moreover it is not going to turn into a sort of Taiwan because a) the hostilities mentioned above and b) an army can be marched across the Caucasus Mountains to take it out.
Oh for the... How on earth did I manage to forget the bloody Russian civil war that was going on at the time? Christ I need to get more sleep.
 
The Russian zone is unlikely to last until WW2 because the Turks will knock it off during the Civil War. Neither the Whites nor the Reds are going to commit many troops to hold it what with the Rodina at stake. Moreover it is not going to turn into a sort of Taiwan because a) the hostillities mentioned above and b) an army can be marched across the Caucasus Mountains to take it out.

Sorry for overlooking this in my other big post - note that the split of Anatolia is most reminiscent of the Treaty of Sevres, which was made defunct anyway by the Turkish Revolution
 
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