Frederick Barbarossa doesn't drown in that stream...!

[reddie]

Okay, so what if Freddy Barbarossa actually made it across that Anatolian stream? What if he manages not cling to life for (let's say) another three years?

And what if the man who unified the middle east--Saladin--dies instead, of natural causes? I'm used to thinking of Saladin as being young and vibrant during the time of the Crusades, and Barbarossa as being a doddering old geezer, but actually both of them were in rather precarious health at the time of the 3rd Crusade. Saladin was probably in worse shape than Barbarossa at the time; in OTL he died something like six months after Barbarossa's fateful dip into the creek. Saladin was amazing--the guy had pretty much done nothing but campaign for the previous forty years. A Saladin versus the Mongols scenario would be interesting, but unfortunately that's ASB given the time frame.

So, Freddy B and 100,000 men are entering the northern border of what was once the County of Edessa, and Saladin lies several days' dead. What happens?

 

[aktarian]

There is a TL with that POD. Good one. Unholy Roman empire, if my memory serves me right.

 

[mdc_1957]

Okay, so what if Freddy Barbarossa actually made it across that Anatolian stream? What if he manages not cling to life for (let's say) another three years?

And what if the man who unified the middle east--Saladin--dies instead, of natural causes? I'm used to thinking of Saladin as being young and vibrant during the time of the Crusades, and Barbarossa as being a doddering old geezer, but actually both of them were in rather precarious health at the time of the 3rd Crusade. Saladin was probably in worse shape than Barbarossa at the time; in OTL he died something like six months after Barbarossa's fateful dip into the creek. Saladin was amazing--the guy had pretty much done nothing but campaign for the previous forty years. A Saladin versus the Mongols scenario would be interesting, but unfortunately that's ASB given the time frame.

So, Freddy B and 100,000 men are entering the northern border of what was once the County of Edessa, and Saladin lies several days' dead. What happens?

If he plays his cards right, Fritz takes advantage of the turmoil to secure a quick victory. Edessa could become a German crusader state and a base with which to further conduct the campaign.

 

[Yelnoc]

With Saladin does Egypt fall apart?

 

[reddie]

With Saladin does Egypt fall apart?

It didn't in OTL, even in the face of the Crusades; then again Egypt generally wasn't their target.

The unity between the Muslim east (Syria and Babylon) and the Muslim west (Egypt) did fall apart after Saladin's death, although it wasn't particularly traumatic. The guy who ruled Egypt after Saladin was Al-Aziz Uthman, who really didn't seem to accomplish much. His only contribution to posterity was his defacing of the pyramids (Uthman is the reason why the pyramids aren't bright, white marble objects, since he stole their marble covering). He also got himself killed in a hunting accident in 1200, the klutz.

Frankly, he doesn't sound like a leader of Saladin's caliber. He's probably not the sort of guy you want running Egypt with several powerful Crusader States next door. His son, Nasir al-Din Muhammed, was even less accomplished than dad.

 

[Janprimus]

Well emperor Frederick I was 68 or 67 at the time, so he wouldn't have many years left. A German Edessa is a possibility, furthermore Frederick might find out that the Rhomanoi (Byzantines) had made an arrangement with Saladin...
Finally this will also mean that they won't return to 'HRE' so soon, so useful extra troops to liberate the kingdom of Jerusalem, but perhaps it may lead to more ''conflicts'' with France and England...

 

[aktarian]

It didn't in OTL, even in the face of the Crusades; then again Egypt generally wasn't their target.

The unity between the Muslim east (Syria and Babylon) and the Muslim west (Egypt) did fall apart after Saladin's death, although it wasn't particularly traumatic. The guy who ruled Egypt after Saladin was Al-Aziz Uthman, who really didn't seem to accomplish much. His only contribution to posterity was his defacing of the pyramids (Uthman is the reason why the pyramids aren't bright, white marble objects, since he stole their marble covering). He also got himself killed in a hunting accident in 1200, the klutz.

Frankly, he doesn't sound like a leader of Saladin's caliber. He's probably not the sort of guy you want running Egypt with several powerful Crusader States next door. His son, Nasir al-Din Muhammed, was even less accomplished than dad.

Later crusades were directed toward Egypt (it was their goal, not diversion like sack of Constantinople). They were beaten off, though partly due to mistakes by crusaders

 

[Janprimus]

Later crusades were directed toward Egypt (it was their goal, not diversion like sack of Constantinople). They were beaten off, though partly due to mistakes by crusaders

Sometimes I wonder if Constantinople was completely a diversion. There were a lot of problems between the West and Constantinople. To some extent Constantinople needed their help, but they continued to treat them arrogantly and as barbarians. Maybe to some Westerners the conquest of Constantinople was used to humble the arrogant Rhomanoi? Well at least this was the impression of 'Constantinople' in the West and this endured untill the end. The last Byzantine emperors really had to beg for help in the west, but that was too little too late. These problems IMHO really started during the crusades; the Byzantines wanted and needed the military help of the west*, but that from a western point of view didn't stop them to treat these westerners arrogantly. And it is my impression that this image endured..

(*= the irony is that the Western Roman Empire could have used the help of the Eastern Roman Empire at certain earlier times.)

 

[aktarian]

Sometimes I wonder if Constantinople was completely a diversion. There were a lot of problems between the West and Constantinople. To some extent Constantinople needed their help, but they continued to treat them arrogantly and as barbarians. Maybe to some Westerners the conquest of Constantinople was used to humble the arrogant Rhomanoi? Well at least this was the impression of 'Constantinople' in the West and this endured untill the end. The last Byzantine emperors really had to beg for help in the west, but that was too little too late. These problems IMHO really started during the crusades; the Byzantines wanted and needed the military help of the west*, but that from a western point of view didn't stop them to treat these westerners arrogantly. And it is my impression that this image endured..

(*= the irony is that the Western Roman Empire could have used the help of the Eastern Roman Empire at certain earlier times.)

well, Constantinople was not the target. However troubles with start of campaign (leaders ordered a lot of ships, Venetians built them but then fewer people showed up and there was not enough money) put crusaders in difficult position. But from what I gather the sack itself was a result of series of actions and misunderstandings (on both sides) and not something that either crusaders or Venetians planned from the start. Unlike, as I mentioned, later crusades which were clearly aimed at Egypt.

 

[Janprimus]

well, Constantinople was not the target. However troubles with start of campaign (leaders ordered a lot of ships, Venetians built them but then fewer people showed up and there was not enough money) put crusaders in difficult position. But from what I gather the sack itself was a result of series of actions and misunderstandings (on both sides) and not something that either crusaders or Venetians planned from the start. Unlike, as I mentioned, later crusades which were clearly aimed at Egypt.

Agreed, but during the crusades the 'West' and 'Constantinople' got a bad relation and above all enduring memories (like in said in my earlier post). The way that they perceived eachother may have increased those misunderstandings.

Anyway IMHO the way the 'Byzantines' treated the 'West' may very well have costed them help, when they really needed it (at the end).