Franco-Italian War in the early to mid 30s

IIRC, Germany basically picked THE year to fight. If they'd gone earlier, France would have stomped them. Later, their economy implodes under the strain while the Brits have spare Hurricanes coming out of their ears, rendering it air parity if not Wallies air superiority and invalidating Sickle-cut as a possible strategy. They have to fight a war of material attrition against Britain and France put together, a losing recipe.

I'm not sure. Basically, after France backed down during the Rhur occupation, it had given the initiative to Britain and Germany - France simply lacked the economic muscle/political coordination to be able to go up against Germany without full British backing after that point. So without something that fundamentally alters the French political or economic reality, it is Britain or Germany that can pick when to start the war. Britain wanted a German recovery, so it is hard to see them working to stop Germany before it was too late. And Germany, well, Germany would start a big war when it felt itself to have the advantage. In OTL that was 1939 - but note that the Germans were planning for fighting the WAllies to happen in the 40s. They got lucky and they exploited it. So in any ATL, if they are less lucky, then they will bide their time (yes, they will have a rough time economically, but I have a hard time seeing the Germans throwing off the Nazi regime before the Nazis get an opportunity to start the big war and thus get more countries to loot) and if they are more lucky, I bet they will try to knock France down earlier.

fasquardon
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm not sure. Basically, after France backed down during the Rhur occupation, it had given the initiative to Britain and Germany - France simply lacked the economic muscle/political coordination to be able to go up against Germany without full British backing after that point. So without something that fundamentally alters the French political or economic reality, it is Britain or Germany that can pick when to start the war. Britain wanted a German recovery, so it is hard to see them working to stop Germany before it was too late. And Germany, well, Germany would start a big war when it felt itself to have the advantage. In OTL that was 1939 - but note that the Germans were planning for fighting the WAllies to happen in the 40s. They got lucky and they exploited it. So in any ATL, if they are less lucky, then they will bide their time (yes, they will have a rough time economically, but I have a hard time seeing the Germans throwing off the Nazi regime before the Nazis get an opportunity to start the big war and thus get more countries to loot) and if they are more lucky, I bet they will try to knock France down earlier.

fasquardon
What I mean is, the German rearmament had finally produced the strength to top the French army, but it would have burned the economy out fairly shortly (they were relying on looted material, remember), and Britain could outproduce Germany long-term.
I.e. if they'd gone earlier, they'd have lost out to France. Later, they'd have had to slow the rearmament down, and Britain would have fairly easily matched their production rates. (Add France, and the W.Allies comfortably win the rearmament race.)
 
What I mean is, the German rearmament had finally produced the strength to top the French army, but it would have burned the economy out fairly shortly (they were relying on looted material, remember), and Britain could outproduce Germany long-term.
I.e. if they'd gone earlier, they'd have lost out to France. Later, they'd have had to slow the rearmament down, and Britain would have fairly easily matched their production rates. (Add France, and the W.Allies comfortably win the rearmament race.)

On the other hand, if the war starts later the Germans will have more time to re-arm themselves. Sure, they have to go slower after 1939, probably sell alot of their older weapons to Eastern Europe, maybe even subject the German population to some hardship, but an economic melt-down does not necessarily stop Germany being dangerous. And if the Franco-British alliance are stronger, then it might mean Germany has to alter its diplomatic strategy.

fasquardon
 

Saphroneth

Banned
On the other hand, if the war starts later the Germans will have more time to re-arm themselves. Sure, they have to go slower after 1939, probably sell alot of their older weapons to Eastern Europe, maybe even subject the German population to some hardship, but an economic melt-down does not necessarily stop Germany being dangerous. And if the Franco-British alliance are stronger, then it might mean Germany has to alter its diplomatic strategy.

fasquardon

The economic SNAFU means German rearmament slows down, yes. And, more importantly, the British and French combined were already outpacing even the faster German rate of 1937-9.
 
I know who they are...i was just imply their continued existence as some viable force after Graziani had done his dirty work with them aka pure and simple ethnic cleasing.

There is still a Great Sennusi and while the native population was much reduced by Graziani, there were still native Libyans and about a third of them where Sennusi. We might see a non-Sennusi uprising of course, but I am betting if there is an uprising, the Sennusi would be a big part of it.

fasquardon
 
I was thinking more about this scenario, and I got to thinking about peace terms. What would the French want from the Italians if they won? And what would the Italians get from the French if they (kinda) won? I say "kinda" because I don't see Mussolini getting anything close to what he thinks he ought to get out of such a war.

I am guessing the main thing the French would insist on upon their victory is for Italy to pay reparations to themselves and Spain. I could also see the French pressing for the boarder adjustments they got in OTL's post WW2 peace (see here). Since I can see the French being keen on a quick peace so they can return their focus back to Germany, I am not sure what more Italy could lose. Maybe a rump Ethiopia regaining independence (effectively or overtly as a French protectorate though)? France or Spain getting parts of Libya? Or maybe Spain getting some territory from Italian East Africa?

Much depends on how long and bitter the war is, of course. I wrote the above with a one/two year war in mind.

fasquardon
 
Tricky but interesting

I've been immersing myself in this period researching a French Civil War scenario, so this drew my eye. And I can conceive of a twist here and there that would have led to such a war, which likely would have been brief and vaguely comedic. Let's face it, we've seen nations go to war using armed Toyotas. If two groups of rival political elites get mad enough, there is no limit to how willing they are to go tell the lower classes to die on behalf of their temper.

As an aside, one of the frustrating aspects of the site to me as a reader is that when someone says, "What if --" s/he is buried under reasons why it could never happen, citing all the reasons it didn't. Sometimes an idea is absurd, but if there is some plausibility, I enjoy seeing what would happen from there. The fun really is in the *result* and *consequences*, not the POD.

So go for it.

I'd suggest two big obstacles to address. First, neither country had a great deal confidence in its military readiness. France had some wonderful toys to play with but no idea what to do with them. More critically, Gamelin had no real interest in figuring it out. French military history in the 1930s consists largely of commissioning staff studies that proposed reforms that Gamelin would automatically reject as involving just too much work. (The legend, earned or not, of Charles de Gaulle began here as his proposals on the use of France's top-of-the-line tanks were rejected by Gamelin who really didn't care to stop brooding and sighing heavily long enough to seriously study them.)

As for Mussolini, he spent the first part of the decade plotting to retain his World's Top Right Wing Dictator laurels by out-maneuvering Hitler in reference to Austria, among other prizes. His methods were entirely grounded in ideological appeals (he was a rare bird, an "international" fascist) made via his chief diplomat and son-in-law. Ciano cut a dashing figure in a tux, and by the time he became Foreign Minister he had mastered a haughty sneer almost Parisian in its precise and devastating execution. Mussolini seems to have assumed these things would carry the day.

Hitler was more of a cut-to-the-chase kind of despot. Spotting Benito's game -- rouse up the Austrian fascists to take Vienna while cutting the Austrian Nazis out of the game -- he may, perhaps, have paused ever so briefly to contemplate diplomatic maneuvers of his own. In any event, if he did, he quickly waved that off in favor of marching into town himself, at which point Mussolini's "Austro-fascist" group vanished.

When his rivalry with Hitler began to degrade into humiliating sycophancy, he was forced to advise the Führer his own armed forces weren't prepared to take up co-belligerency in any competent manner. That was in August, 1939. And as was subsequently, repeatedly shown, the Italian Army was badly equipped and even more badly led. (Rommel, who fought as closely in coordination with the Italians as any German general, commented that the found the Italian soldier admirable, his equipment deployable and his leaders laughable.)

Second, the French were just as reticent as the Italians to engage in war, not because of a poorly equipped army, or bad field leadership, but because the see-saw of French politics in the 30s meant that French foreign policy consisted (insofar as it consisted of anything) of "wow, sure hope the Germans don't invade us." Well, to be fair, there was one other consistency in French foreign policy of the 30s, which was promising the Poles they would go to war to defend them from Germany while whispering to the Germans not to take that too seriously. Which the Germans didn't. Hence, Hitler's fury with Ribbentropp when -- as much to their own surprise as anyone else's -- the French declared war after the invasion of Poland. Funny world, this.

Sure, there was a then tiny group of French nationalist-socialist thinkers and advocates who admired Germany and insisted the real threat was Britain, but their influence in the 30s was de minimis. The sudden embrace of Nazism by French fascists post-surrender was -- just that. Post-surrender.

The French people were also -- understandably -- exhausted. They'd dealt with German invasions twice in less than a century's time and been badly bloodied. They had no real assurance England, let alone America, would help them out, and were more than a little bitter that it was their pan that always got burned black, war after war, while Brits and Yanks showed up, fresh and re-supplied, kicked the Germans across the Rhine, and then demanded the French grovel out some thanks for saving their bacon.

To understand just how lethargic Gamelin's French Army was throughout the 30s, remember that when invaded by clouds of German planes and hoards of Panzers, Gamelin's advice to the Prime Minister was to sit back and wait and see how things developed -- best not act rashly. Or at all. And in the 1946 hearings, Parliament finally answered the question of why the French Air Force, which was not at a major disadvantage on paper, failed to show up and contest the Luftwaffe's sorties or bomb German troops. Two things: (1) le Armée de l'Air's commanders refused to order their planes into the air, fearing they might be shot down -- better to save them for a rainy day; and, (2) the newer fighters, e.g., the D.520, had been delivered to their respective fields well before, but no one could be bothered to attach the propellors, and when these were finally located the Hun was at the gates, airfield by airfield. (The D.520's turned over intact became part of Axis air forces across Europe.)

Summarily, it's hard to imagine either country committing to invade the other.

But it could have happened, precisely because war is almost always the result of irrational decisions made on imperfect intelligence.

I agree with one of the earlier commentators that France would have to be assured Germany would not attack. The actual balance of forces doesn't matter. After the war, French generals and intelligence officials admitted they conflated the figures in order to convince the government not to get too adventurous. And, as so often happens in such a situation, even *they* started to believe them.

A deal might have been cut, though, in the middle of the decade, because Hitler was aware he needed a few more years to build his forces, and he was aware of Mussolini's intrigues against him. Remember, this is also during a period that the French always assumed Hitler would keep a solemn oath derived from diplomatic conference.
 
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Guernica happened in 1937, I am guessing you made a typo there.

I like the atrocity being what pushes France over the edge, since at that point the British sympathies will be for the Republicans, and keeping Britain on-side for a future confrontation with the Germans was at the heart of French policy at this time.

Checking on the dates, even if the French got involved at the start of the Spanish Civil War, it is still after the Rhineland Crisis. A necessary PoD for France getting involved is for something to be done that would make them feel less frightened of Germany, or something to convince them that they can save Spain quickly. As much as France gets a bad rap for having poor military doctrine, parts of the French army had very good ideas for how to fight a fast war - it's just that no-one expected a new war with Germany to be fast, and Germany was the main enemy. I wonder if there is a plausible way for all the French good ideas to gel together into a proposal that would convince the political and military establishment that they can intervene and finish in Spain quickly...

I am really not sure if the French would beat the Italians as easily as some people are thinking though... Yes, they have alot of advantages, but I have no idea how the French navy and the AdA would be likely to perform in a war like this and much depends on them. The French navy had good ships at this point, I remember that, I don't know if the leadership is going to use the ships to their best effect though. The AdA, I think will perform much better than in 1939. They aren't starting a war mid-reaming, so they will have (for 1937) some of the best kit flying. Many of the leadership mistakes in 1939 were also because the AdA was focused on saving its strength for a long drawn out war (and saving its strength for when they had the right planes). Obviously a very bad mistake against Germany, in this situation, I am not sure how they would play their cards. Certainly, the French army, navy and AdA will make mistakes, but I am not sure if they will make more mistakes than the Italians, or less.

I am inclined to think that the pressure on the French to get in and get out quick will push their military leaders to be as aggressive as they possibly can. So that means their performance will be much better than 1939 would lead us to believe, but on the other hand, I would think that observers at the time will be expecting the mighty French army to whup the Italians and the Nationalists like red-headed step-children, and there is simply no way the war would be that easy for them. So lots of disappointed French patriots, pleased Germans and worried Brits...

One thought on Libya: the Italians could face a Senussi revolt if the French manage to humiliate them in this theater.

fasquardon

Thank you yes it was 1937
 
A deal might have been cut, though, in the middle of the decade, because Hitler was aware he needed a few more years to build his forces, and he was aware of Mussolini's intrigues against him. Remember, this is also during a period that the French always assumed Hitler would keep a solemn oath derived from diplomatic conference.

The Germans trying to play the Italians and the French off against each-other makes for a wonderful image...

I think your general analysis is unfair to the French and to the Italians however.

For example, the Italians had some very good commanders - they were most all in Abyssinia though, so their performance on other fronts is as you say. They gave the British a very tough fight in East Africa however.

And French policy was fairly consistent across the many governments they had. Their foreign policy was mainly focused on two priorities: stay as close to Britain as possible and beware of Germany. Alas, Britain maintained a rather contradictory foreign policy (because they were trying to make sure no-one on the continent got too powerful for their liking), so the French had to be just as contradictory to keep up (so that they could keep British good-will and maybe get more powerful relative to Germany while they were at it). Indeed, British foreign policy spent the 1920s more worried about France and Poland than they were about Germany.

fasquardon
 

thaddeus

Donor
what if immediately after end of Spanish Civil War instead of (OTL) invasion of Albania Mussolini makes some ill-advised move against France?

where would most likely flashpoint be? Tunisia? even Corsica? was reading the books and French prime minister visited both in 1939 to reaffirm their importance.

maybe some naval confrontation escalates, not a full scale war but multiple sea battles? etc. think that has to heavily favor France.

as was suggested, Libya gets overrun by French forces and Ethiopians rebel aided by France?

two possibles

France gets caught in 1940 with some number of their military in N.Africa (meaning greater than OTL colonial forces.)

disasters as well as costs of overseas empire in general lead to Mussolini downfall or worse split in Italy? https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=312675
 
I was thinking more about this scenario, and I got to thinking about peace terms. What would the French want from the Italians if they won?

I would think they would want the Aosta Valley, which is historically French/Francoprovençal-speaking.

But at any rate, Italy would have to be the ones to start the conflict. France in the 1930s absolutely did not want to go to war again, not after the country had paid a horrific price in the Great War - 1.7 million deaths and 4.3 million wounded, out of a total pre-war population of 40 million. Not to mention that large portions of northern France had been devastated.

The French people were also -- understandably -- exhausted. They'd dealt with German invasions twice in less than a century's time and been badly bloodied. They had no real assurance England, let alone America, would help them out, and were more than a little bitter that it was their pan that always got burned black, war after war, while Brits and Yanks showed up, fresh and re-supplied, kicked the Germans across the Rhine, and then demanded the French grovel out some thanks for saving their bacon.

I think you're getting the two World Wars mixed up. In WWI, France suffered more casualties than the British and Americans combined. The Allies were not "demanding" anything of them after the war.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
I was thinking more about this scenario, and I got to thinking about peace terms. What would the French want from the Italians if they won? Maybe a rump Ethiopia regaining independence (effectively or overtly as a French protectorate though)? France or Spain getting parts of Libya? Or maybe Spain getting some territory from Italian East Africa?

I would think they would want the Aosta Valley, which is historically French/Francoprovençal-speaking

since France constructed Mareth Line to protect Tunisia OTL seems their priority would be Italians out of N.Africa. maybe more restrictions on the size and structure of Italian fleet, etc.
 
To be honest, I don't really see either Italy or France as likely to start this war - more likely it is something they both blunder into without realizing that the other side is too proud not to call their bluff.

Looking at a map, there's quite a bit of the Italian alps that are "French-speaking". I do wonder how willing the French would be to have land over the crest of the alps though. The idea of "ideal defensive boarders" seems to have been quite popular among French policy makers.

I see an Italian civil war as pretty unlikely. Most likely, if Italy loses, Mussolini is asked to go, and he goes, with most of his Fascists with him. Depending on how badly Italy has lost, he may have to work hard to dodge the lynch mobs, but I expect the King would retain enough authority to make sure the transfer of power, as post-WW2, goes fairly smoothly. It would make for a very interesting timeline though.

fasquardon
 

thaddeus

Donor
To be honest, I don't really see either Italy or France as likely to start this war - more likely it is something they both blunder into without realizing that the other side is too proud not to call their bluff.

exactly what I envision, just see it as more likely some incidents at sea escalate into shooting war, ships collide near Tunis, Italians sail to close to Corsica, etc. could see the French using conflict to at least seize Tripoli area to safeguard Tunisia.

I see an Italian civil war as pretty unlikely. Most likely, if Italy loses, Mussolini is asked to go, and he goes, with most of his Fascists with him. Depending on how badly Italy has lost, he may have to work hard to dodge the lynch mobs, but I expect the King would retain enough authority to make sure the transfer of power, as post-WW2, goes fairly smoothly. It would make for a very interesting timeline though. fasquardon

if Italy got beaten in a few naval battles, lost Libya to French forces, or withdraw after losing Tripoli? lose Ethiopia to French-backed rebellion? envision Mussolini gone, but a "vengeance group" pro-German, disgruntled military, anti-monarchists, etc blaming Rome, France, their Stresa Front "partner" Great Britain. during invasion of France they stage a coup/attempted coup along the lines of Italian Social Republic, not including Rome, maybe someone like Graziani named leader, they are given territory in France that Italy occupied OTL.
 
if Italy got beaten in a few naval battles, lost Libya to French forces, or withdraw after losing Tripoli? lose Ethiopia to French-backed rebellion? envision Mussolini gone, but a "vengeance group" pro-German, disgruntled military, anti-monarchists, etc blaming Rome, France, their Stresa Front "partner" Great Britain. during invasion of France they stage a coup/attempted coup along the lines of Italian Social Republic, not including Rome, maybe someone like Graziani named leader, they are given territory in France that Italy occupied OTL.

Well supporting Ethiopian rebel will be difficult, at least without British aid (that's not a given) due to the fact that Djibuti will not last very long.

Regarding France navy being more aggressive due to the foe being Italy and so 'less menacing', well even the reverse is true. OTL Regia Marina had a reverential fear of the Royal Navy...Marine Nationale? Not so much, not that they think that they are some pushover, just don't have the aura of invincibility of the British.

Equipment wise, is not that great difference between the two and Italy has not dryed herself in the fight in Spain plus the army division are still trinary so, at least, more efficient than OTL.
I expect a brief war as OTL Italian invasion of France in 1940 with little or no change after
 

thaddeus

Donor
Well supporting Ethiopian rebel will be difficult, at least without British aid (that's not a given) due to the fact that Djibuti will not last very long.

Regarding France navy being more aggressive due to the foe being Italy and so 'less menacing', well even the reverse is true. OTL Regia Marina had a reverential fear of the Royal Navy...Marine Nationale? Not so much

Equipment wise, is not that great difference between the two
I expect a brief war as OTL Italian invasion of France in 1940 with little or no change after

was really speculating more the worst case scenario for Italy. sure you have more knowledge regarding Ital. East Africa scenarios. was there ongoing low level resistance to Italians in Ethiopia from 1936 onward? or would any rebellion start from "scratch?"

was reading up on 1939 and French leader DID visit Tunisia and Corsica to reassure over Italian (perceived) intentions.

and Italy DID invade Albania in April 1939 so it is fairly plausible to envision some conflict with France instead.

still think, given their performance in 1940, Italy would be driven out of Libya after (IMO) attacking Tunisia first.

not sure the odds of Mussolini gone after losing Libya? or my scenario of earlier Italian Social Republic? https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=312675

DO think the best time for coup/attempted coup/civil war would be near end of invasion of France 1940 when some would want to join Axis for vengeance and cautious government trying to stay neutral.
 
Regarding France navy being more aggressive due to the foe being Italy and so 'less menacing', well even the reverse is true. OTL Regia Marina had a reverential fear of the Royal Navy...Marine Nationale? Not so much, not that they think that they are some pushover, just don't have the aura of invincibility of the British

Not only the lack of aura of invincibility, it's a pretty even match in numbers, and if Italy can get the jump on the French navy and either sink most of it or just badly maul it, she becomes the strongest naval power in the med. Well... There's still the British, so maybe I should say strongest naval power native to the med... Still a big prize.

Of course, while there are reasons to be aggressive, there are also reasons to play this like WW1. The Italian admirals could be thinking: "Hole up in port and don't loose any ships to silly actions so the fleet-in-being is maintained (and besides, this whole war is just a mistake, right, they'll negotiate a peace by Christmas)."

Abyssinia was pretty restive after it was conquered, which is why they had to keep so many of their best troops there. The Italians were winning, mind, but it was a slow and bloody business (as counterinsurgencies generally are).

fasquardon
 
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