For the Republic: A History of the Second American Civil War
- Thread starter The Angry Observer
- Start date
I don’t think the divisions who joined Weygand beforehand would have accepted such a degree of treason. Sure, many of them might share his right-wing political outlook, but most French people (including common soldiers and officers of course) were very anti-German to the core at that time - and selling out Alsace-Lorraine would have been a big middle finger to them, plus almost every single French WW1 veterans as well.
IMO logically there should have been a massive mutiny/rebellion against Weygand the moment this deal is revealed, rather than having them just casually walking away with all those gains.
Even TTL MacArthur never pulled this kind of stuff at the beginning of the SACW.
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I totally agree with the above.....so much blood spilt, giving away Alsace-Lorraine ....... i doubt Weygand would get away with his life.
The whole French civil war post just doesn't work for me, just seems contrived .
Frech troops accepting German annexation and invasion !!
Getting British troops to France from nothing to deployment in few days !!
Germany having troops and logistics to do France and the Austria at same time!!
Italy in position to invade France as well!!
Sorry but this has for me just destoyed what i believed to be a well thought out and presented timeline.
Sorry for the criticism but i really like this and was following it.
The whole French civil war post just doesn't work for me, just seems contrived .
Frech troops accepting German annexation and invasion !!
Getting British troops to France from nothing to deployment in few days !!
Germany having troops and logistics to do France and the Austria at same time!!
Italy in position to invade France as well!!
Sorry but this has for me just destoyed what i believed to be a well thought out and presented timeline.
Sorry for the criticism but i really like this and was following it.
On that note, the Wehrmacht was not exactly a high-quality force at this point (especially with Hitler IOTL having secret orders during the Occupation of the Rhineland to withdraw if the Entente did anything).
Garrison
Donor
The Panzer I only began entering service in 1934, the Bf 109 made its first flight in 1935, most of the Luftwaffe is made up of training aircraft. As for the Kriegsmarine, yeah that's basically non-existent and given the antipathy towards Germany the notion of the French rolling over and giving up Alsace-Lorraine is absurd.
Now I didn't write this but I think there are some points we need to consider.
1. with regard to the abandonment of Alsace Lorraine, I think what exactly did the normal soldiers know at the time? It was certainly not said out loud at the very beginning and when it came to it, the French were in a weaker position than they could protest against it. The saying goes: in for a penny, in for a pound.
To be honest, I doubt that Weygand would have kept his word and betrayed Germany in the end.
2. then the invasion of Austria.
Is it really an invasion with a full army or do only a few regiments march over and the Austrian Nazis do the rest?
3. the invasion of Italy.
It was said that the French-Italian border fortifications were not occupied. Moreover, this Italian army is not demotivated by numerous defeats and operates in home territory .
So unlikely overall? Yes, but just as unlikely that a second civil war will break out in the USA
1. with regard to the abandonment of Alsace Lorraine, I think what exactly did the normal soldiers know at the time? It was certainly not said out loud at the very beginning and when it came to it, the French were in a weaker position than they could protest against it. The saying goes: in for a penny, in for a pound.
To be honest, I doubt that Weygand would have kept his word and betrayed Germany in the end.
2. then the invasion of Austria.
Is it really an invasion with a full army or do only a few regiments march over and the Austrian Nazis do the rest?
3. the invasion of Italy.
It was said that the French-Italian border fortifications were not occupied. Moreover, this Italian army is not demotivated by numerous defeats and operates in home territory .
So unlikely overall? Yes, but just as unlikely that a second civil war will break out in the USA
Lets look at the situation over Austria and italy....none has been changed by the post on the French civil war so the following
Italy has an agteement with Austria and honoured it by moving its army to the Austria border to help prevent anschluss.
So if this is happening where is the Italian army moving into France coming from.
Can the mediocre German armed forces spare troops for an adventure in France when it has to think of a possible Italian reaction ...this is 3 years earlier....italy and Germany have no Berlin Rome axis.....Hitler is not the dominant in the relationship he would be later.
The German army in 1935 is transforming from the army of the Wiemer republic of i believe around 100,000 strong into the nazi German army .....its absorbing 10s of thousand of recruits and conscripts, its in training, i doubt there is a regular veteran regiment in the army its in complete flux, new equiment, new men, new officers, new training......not in any state to even think of marching into France never mind an Austria supported by the Italian dictator whom has his army at the border ready to march towards yours.
Weygand position is beyond perilous....Frenchmen in his army are going to see the despised and hated Germans on sacred French soil...(they are an outside force...nothing like and outside force to pull a nation together and forget its internal problems.) With some of those soldiers families now in German hands...the same germans whom killed, fathers, brothers, uncles even friends for some....they are going to fight...the Weygand regime is dead it cannot survive a deal with Germany .
Italy has an agteement with Austria and honoured it by moving its army to the Austria border to help prevent anschluss.
So if this is happening where is the Italian army moving into France coming from.
Can the mediocre German armed forces spare troops for an adventure in France when it has to think of a possible Italian reaction ...this is 3 years earlier....italy and Germany have no Berlin Rome axis.....Hitler is not the dominant in the relationship he would be later.
The German army in 1935 is transforming from the army of the Wiemer republic of i believe around 100,000 strong into the nazi German army .....its absorbing 10s of thousand of recruits and conscripts, its in training, i doubt there is a regular veteran regiment in the army its in complete flux, new equiment, new men, new officers, new training......not in any state to even think of marching into France never mind an Austria supported by the Italian dictator whom has his army at the border ready to march towards yours.
Weygand position is beyond perilous....Frenchmen in his army are going to see the despised and hated Germans on sacred French soil...(they are an outside force...nothing like and outside force to pull a nation together and forget its internal problems.) With some of those soldiers families now in German hands...the same germans whom killed, fathers, brothers, uncles even friends for some....they are going to fight...the Weygand regime is dead it cannot survive a deal with Germany .
OTL is not TTL.
Everything started here a year or two earlier.
Because of the joint action in the SCW, I think that Germany and Italy agreed on their differences earlier. Hitler probably made the deal with Austria in return for Italy's support in France and the Balkans.
And while I don't think the German army is seriously combat ready it probably looks pretty strong on paper. It's more of a symbol. If the French had seriously united against Germany and Italy they probably would have won.
But we can probably expect pockets of resistance to pop up all over northern France and a situation like 1944.
Everything started here a year or two earlier.
Because of the joint action in the SCW, I think that Germany and Italy agreed on their differences earlier. Hitler probably made the deal with Austria in return for Italy's support in France and the Balkans.
And while I don't think the German army is seriously combat ready it probably looks pretty strong on paper. It's more of a symbol. If the French had seriously united against Germany and Italy they probably would have won.
But we can probably expect pockets of resistance to pop up all over northern France and a situation like 1944.
While I certainly understand how this might feel contrived and a bit left-fielded to some of you, and perhaps it's a failure of ours for trying to pivot so quickly into Europe to do the setup for the late game of this TL, Europe has not been static relative to OTL, particularly militarily. The economic one-two punch of the Depression and then the 2ACW has deteriorated the willingness of the Entente Powers to enforce the limitations set on Germany by Versailles, and the Germans have been scaling up their military production faster and on a larger scale than OTL due to their efforts to supply MacArthur's regime and artificially prop up their battered economy with wartime-level production.
While you guys are certainly correct that there will be enormous rage at giving up Alsace and allying with the Germans, and it absolutely will be explored later, a couple of small reminders. Firstly, though the communists won the most seats, they did not win even close to the majority of the popular vote. There are plenty of PRRRS and even SFIO voters who were not communists and were extremely anxious about a communist-led government taking power, and they, along with much of the French Right, are more than willing to simply... hear out Déat's French State. Better dead than red and all. Secondly, OTL Vichy France was subjected to a much worse humiliation, and despite this, Pétain's government was able to form a military whose leadership was almost entirely from the Third Republic. It is entirely believable that large portions of the military would stay loyal to Weygand after he surrendered a sliver of land to the Germans, given that the military stayed loyal to Pétain after he surrendered two-thirds of France to Germany and Italy.
Also, I want to be pretty clear around the Italy situation. Yes, the Berlin-Rome Axis hasn't been technically formed yet, but both Mussolini and Hitler have been supplying MacArthur with guns, bombs, and volunteers. The coup in Vienna is the first in a series of very quickly moving events, whereby Hitler, who's much closer to Mussolini at this point compared to OTL, essentially redirects the Italians' attentions on an undefended French border and the opportunity to seize land they have irredentist claims on, giving him the ability to go into Austria and support what's already an established order. The Austrian Nazis have killed Schuschnigg, they hold the capital and the country is paralyzed. It is simply a matter of securing this before the military can reorganize and oust them. The Schuchsnigg government is also exceedingly weak and disapproved of at this point, having fought off the Austrian Civil War and the July Putsch less than a year prior, while also enduring the same economic hits as the rest of Europe.
When one looks back at the OTL history of the 1930's, there were literally dozens of serendipitous moments that broke in Hitler's favor, instances where, according to all sense, his regime ought to have died or even never be born, be it the Beer Hall Putsch, the Rhineland, the Anschluss, the Sudetenland, or the Phony War. But that didn't happen, and luck was on his side right up until it wasn't. History doesn't repeat itself, but it does often rhyme, and that's what you're seeing here.
While you guys are certainly correct that there will be enormous rage at giving up Alsace and allying with the Germans, and it absolutely will be explored later, a couple of small reminders. Firstly, though the communists won the most seats, they did not win even close to the majority of the popular vote. There are plenty of PRRRS and even SFIO voters who were not communists and were extremely anxious about a communist-led government taking power, and they, along with much of the French Right, are more than willing to simply... hear out Déat's French State. Better dead than red and all. Secondly, OTL Vichy France was subjected to a much worse humiliation, and despite this, Pétain's government was able to form a military whose leadership was almost entirely from the Third Republic. It is entirely believable that large portions of the military would stay loyal to Weygand after he surrendered a sliver of land to the Germans, given that the military stayed loyal to Pétain after he surrendered two-thirds of France to Germany and Italy.
Also, I want to be pretty clear around the Italy situation. Yes, the Berlin-Rome Axis hasn't been technically formed yet, but both Mussolini and Hitler have been supplying MacArthur with guns, bombs, and volunteers. The coup in Vienna is the first in a series of very quickly moving events, whereby Hitler, who's much closer to Mussolini at this point compared to OTL, essentially redirects the Italians' attentions on an undefended French border and the opportunity to seize land they have irredentist claims on, giving him the ability to go into Austria and support what's already an established order. The Austrian Nazis have killed Schuschnigg, they hold the capital and the country is paralyzed. It is simply a matter of securing this before the military can reorganize and oust them. The Schuchsnigg government is also exceedingly weak and disapproved of at this point, having fought off the Austrian Civil War and the July Putsch less than a year prior, while also enduring the same economic hits as the rest of Europe.
When one looks back at the OTL history of the 1930's, there were literally dozens of serendipitous moments that broke in Hitler's favor, instances where, according to all sense, his regime ought to have died or even never be born, be it the Beer Hall Putsch, the Rhineland, the Anschluss, the Sudetenland, or the Phony War. But that didn't happen, and luck was on his side right up until it wasn't. History doesn't repeat itself, but it does often rhyme, and that's what you're seeing here.
Yeah, I definitely understand that it's a pretty big leap to make. There are a few things I'd like to clarify, however, that the chapter itself may not have touched hard enough on. First of all, the entire world is in absolute chaos and the major players, much less the everyday people, are completely in the dark as to what's being planned by everyone else. The chaos is particularly important because it's how these people that do these things are able to get away with them. By the time the smoke clears, the damage has already been done. Weygand isn't comfortable with his arrangement with Germany and intends for it to be a temporary one. Like many people, he underestimates what Hitler is capable of and how dangerous the German Army really is. He hopes, as he thinks MacArthur is doing, to rapidly secure control of his country from the reds and then set his own camp in order. Fate has a funny way of not working out like that, though.
Is it bad that I kind of like that song, lol? I mean, it sounds nice...
As for the update, I think it's pretty good but I agree with some commenters and think it's a little unrealistic in some respects. Giving up Alsace-Lorraine would be deeply unpopular, especially within the French Army itself. I don't think either faction would settle for a half of France but would want the whole of it. A more realistic outcome, I could see, would be for Petain and de Gaulle to establish a government in exile in the French colonies, more similar to the OTL Free France, and for the Germans and Italians to basically stab Weygand in the back, occupying Alsace-Lorraine and Nice even though he offered smaller concessions at first, resulting in a very unpopular government, with France descending into civil war as soon as WWII starts. But that's just how I would do it. I have full faith in you and believe this is, nonetheless, a very interesting idea and a not altogether unrealistic outcome. I'm excited to see more!
This is a completely different scenario where France was already *beaten and broken*. You are telling us that France is going to hand over Alsace Lorraine *without firing a shot* - sorry that cannot happen.
Plus, Petain was the greatest living WW1 hero in 1940 so he could gather support from the desperate French people, and IOTL was legally appointed as Prime Minister and eventually Head of State. So, OTL Petain had the political legitimacy and legality that TTL Weygand - a putchist - never had.
Yeah, you know how “successful” Italy was IOTL when they tried to attack French border fortifications - Italy was not simply prepared to assault French forts as late as 1940, let alone 1935.
This chaotic conditions would have also completely worked against the TTL German incursion you detailed above, because:
1) IfWeygand keeps his deal in secret: unaware French defense troops would have certainly opened fire the moment German troops showed up at Alsace Lorraine border. 40,000 German troops in 1935 is not going breach through French defense.
2) If Weygand tell the troops about his deal: they would have told him to pound sand and switched their allegiances to the clearly more popular Petain. In this case, French border troops would have also opened fire against the Germans and the Germans would have been bogged down at the border.
IMO, you can ask some French AH members here for a few more insights.
1) Germany relied heavily on imports of oil and raw materials - and the SACW has already messed with global markets, especially oil. Scaling up rearmament harder means relying on Soviet Union supplies much more heavily than IOTL - but there is limit because in 1935 there was no Molotov-Ribbentrop yet, certainly not without Czechoslovakia annexation.
2) IMO it is hard to significantly accelerate Germany’s rearmament rate compared to IOTL due to resource constraints (even IOTL Germany basically threw its entire kitchen sink into rearmament from the start). Plus, a portion of German arm production already went to MacArthur, which means fewer armaments available for its army.
3) The British definitely would have observed Germany’s rearmament, especially naval rearmament.
Regarding Italy this means nothing against France, since Italian Army is a paper tiger with zero ability to breach French border fortifications.
Most of them still hated the Germans more than the Reds.
When you say a couple of years earlier......when did Hitler come to power ?
Because he has only been Chancellor and then President since 1933 !
If Germany went into crash rearmament from that day ..... what did they not do to send equipment and men to America ?
Where are these troops coming from ? What was sacrificed to send these troops to America? Whom wasn't trained, who in the alleged huge German rearament was missed out so the Americans could be supplied ?
The pod is in 1934.....so Germany has not yet started its rearmament when this happens, its not started its army increase the trained manpower of the German armed forces doesn't stretch to what you have it doing in 1935.
If you have German troops crossing the border without anyones knowledge the border guards will fight ( thats their job) and then the call will go out....then the local army units will turn up.....on the Germans marching on foot...not panzers but on foot.....the news will travel quicker than Wegand can control it and the French army ...right left or centre will fight the Germans.
Because he has only been Chancellor and then President since 1933 !
If Germany went into crash rearmament from that day ..... what did they not do to send equipment and men to America ?
Where are these troops coming from ? What was sacrificed to send these troops to America? Whom wasn't trained, who in the alleged huge German rearament was missed out so the Americans could be supplied ?
The pod is in 1934.....so Germany has not yet started its rearmament when this happens, its not started its army increase the trained manpower of the German armed forces doesn't stretch to what you have it doing in 1935.
If you have German troops crossing the border without anyones knowledge the border guards will fight ( thats their job) and then the call will go out....then the local army units will turn up.....on the Germans marching on foot...not panzers but on foot.....the news will travel quicker than Wegand can control it and the French army ...right left or centre will fight the Germans.
When you say a couple of years earlier......when did Hitler come to power ?
Because he has only been Chancellor and then President since 1933 !
If Germany went into crash rearmament from that day ..... what did they not do to send equipment and men to America ?
Where are these troops coming from ? What was sacrificed to send these troops to America? Whom wasn't trained, who in the alleged huge German rearament was missed out so the Americans could be supplied ?
The pod is in 1934.....so Germany has not yet started its rearmament when this happens, its not started its army increase the trained manpower of the German armed forces doesn't stretch to what you have it doing in 1935.
If you have German troops crossing the border without anyones knowledge the border guards will fight ( thats their job) and then the call will go out....then the local army units will turn up.....on the Germans marching on foot...not panzers but on foot.....the news will travel quicker than Wegand can control it and the French army ...right left or centre will fight the Germans.
Because he has only been Chancellor and then President since 1933 !
If Germany went into crash rearmament from that day ..... what did they not do to send equipment and men to America ?
Where are these troops coming from ? What was sacrificed to send these troops to America? Whom wasn't trained, who in the alleged huge German rearament was missed out so the Americans could be supplied ?
The pod is in 1934.....so Germany has not yet started its rearmament when this happens, its not started its army increase the trained manpower of the German armed forces doesn't stretch to what you have it doing in 1935.
If you have German troops crossing the border without anyones knowledge the border guards will fight ( thats their job) and then the call will go out....then the local army units will turn up.....on the Germans marching on foot...not panzers but on foot.....the news will travel quicker than Wegand can control it and the French army ...right left or centre will fight the Germans.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! The next update will focus on the British Empire. As for the issues with the update, we are definitely listening. I think it would be pretty disruptive to go back and edit it, but it's informing us on where we want to go in the future. I hope people know we're very grateful for the feedback, and I personally will be a lot more careful when researching the next parts. It's also pretty early in the story itself. There are a lot of directions we could choose to go with France and elsewhere.
These are perfectly fair points. The Wehrmacht, as you've pointed out, would be far too weak at this stage in history to overcome French resistance, which is why collaboration was key for this part. The idea that we personally had is that Weygand would simply transfer troops out of there-- since, there is after all an actual Red insurgency in the capital.
Since lots of people didn't like it, moving forward I'm just going to have to be way more careful researching. That'll definitely mean consulting with people that know more. I'm really sorry for those that are disappointed, and between now and the next update I'm going to do a lot more reading.
In the interest of fairness, this was something we'd known about and considered. Weygand remained active in the military following 1931, until his retirement in 1935. I did go back and edit phrasing just to make this more clear.
Sure, but Gamelin hasn’t been mentioned at all in the plot even though he was already the highest ranking general in France - ITTL he was literally a nobody so far. In fact, Gamelin was chosen because he was politically reliable, plus his reputation before WW2 was actually very respectable.
In 1934-1935 Weygand should have been in Syria - he was CiC there.
I don’t buy the idea of Weygand emptying the entire border to suppress the Reds - logically he would have only taken tens of thousands of troops out of the sector, especially suppression occurred before making deal with Hitler. The rest is still capable of repulsing a 40,000-men German incursion.