Seems to me the story fits with the cancelation of PZL TS-16 Grot. Which was supposed to be a Jaguar class supersonic plane with single seat attack and two seat trainer variants. Now a Jaguar class supersonic plane does seem a logical way to get into supersonic fighter design. This is the path Japan followed even if they renamed on the original Mitsubishi FSX for political reasons and this is also what Yugoslavia and Romania were trying to do with Orao, Novi Avion and IAR95.Seems I was misremembering something I'd read a few years back regarding Poland and the Sino-Soviet rift:
I had thought this was for the international market, since I couldn't figure out why the USSR would want to buy Polish planes in the first place. But upon further reflection, I think this might actually be about the TS-11 Iskra--a Polish trainer jet that entered production in 1964 and was sold to India, but which was a candidate for general Warsaw Pact jet trainer. That is, the references to fighter jets are either mistranslated or misremembered. I think this theory is supported by reference to the selection of Czechoslovakia's L-29 Delfin being a surprise to aviation observers at the time--in other words, that the Delfin was chosen over the Iskra as a result of Soviet pressure.
But I was still incorrect to say this was about not having a MiG competitor--it was Kruschev being a dick in general.
But still, I would argue that the tech base to make jet trainers isn't that much less demanding than that needed to make contemporary fighters, and that, if Poland really put its effort toward it, it could have produced an indigenous equivalent to the MiG-21, though perhaps a few years later than that one.
Fishbed with Phantom. Alternatives for the Polish Army after Finlandization of Poland after World War II.
- Thread starter Sasza
- Start date
I do like the idea of modifed Sherman as the main tank of the Polish Army, especially with SA50 (the cannon also used by AMX-13). The AMX-13 itself is also a very good idea, the tank and vehicles based on its chassis will probably become work horses of the Polish Army used in many, many variants.
I believe that in 1960s Poland will start looking for new tanks to replace Shermans though. The candidates can be Soviet T-54s or T-55s (if the Soviets agree to sell them), Centurions (if the British agree to sell them) or perhaps Polish (and Czech) construction - the Suiss built their own Panzer 61 after all.
1949-1953
"New Dawn" 1949-1953/55
Part 3
Since the first 2CV and H cars started arriving at the Citroen Polska plant located between Warsaw and Łódź, the automotive industry in Poland began to revive. In Warsaw itself, in the Urusus plant, in addition to reactivating tractors, post-war trucks were repaired and modified.
The LWR plant in Lublin, whose brand became Cherolet, started the production of American trucks, the production of Star vehicles was located in Starochowice, and the Swedish Vovo located its production in the border town of Jelcz.
Fiat, fearing that it would lose its pre-war monopoly, started building its own factory in Silesia.
The progressive motorization of society itself allowed horses to be completely withdrawn from the transport function in the army by 1952.
Therefore, in the late 1950s, people began to look for a successor to the M2/M3/M5 halftrack. It was decided to use an eastern solution, such as the Btr-152. Initially, the plan was to purchase these vehicles, but the Kremlin did not consent. Therefore, taking advantage of good relations with the brotherly nation of Hungary, by a strange coincidence, 5 vehicles from this army found themselves at the training ground in Biedrusko.
After a deeper examination, it was decided that the Swedish Volvo Titan would be a good basis for the future truck. Throughout 1953, hard attempts were made to build an APC, which was called "TO Puma".
It was a fairly exact copy of the BTR-152a, even better in terms of engine and simply better workmanship than the Soviet counterpart.
When it was first publicly shown during winter maneuvers at the training ground in Żagań in 1954, it aroused the interest of the Turkish and South Korean delegations.
By the time the Korean War broke out in the summer of 1955, over 300 of these vehicles had been exported, and production was tripled thanks to American loans. Despite the appearance of its successor in the 1960s, the vehicle was produced until the 1980s, and in Turkey until the 1990s.
Part 3
Since the first 2CV and H cars started arriving at the Citroen Polska plant located between Warsaw and Łódź, the automotive industry in Poland began to revive. In Warsaw itself, in the Urusus plant, in addition to reactivating tractors, post-war trucks were repaired and modified.
The LWR plant in Lublin, whose brand became Cherolet, started the production of American trucks, the production of Star vehicles was located in Starochowice, and the Swedish Vovo located its production in the border town of Jelcz.
Fiat, fearing that it would lose its pre-war monopoly, started building its own factory in Silesia.
The progressive motorization of society itself allowed horses to be completely withdrawn from the transport function in the army by 1952.
Therefore, in the late 1950s, people began to look for a successor to the M2/M3/M5 halftrack. It was decided to use an eastern solution, such as the Btr-152. Initially, the plan was to purchase these vehicles, but the Kremlin did not consent. Therefore, taking advantage of good relations with the brotherly nation of Hungary, by a strange coincidence, 5 vehicles from this army found themselves at the training ground in Biedrusko.
After a deeper examination, it was decided that the Swedish Volvo Titan would be a good basis for the future truck. Throughout 1953, hard attempts were made to build an APC, which was called "TO Puma".
It was a fairly exact copy of the BTR-152a, even better in terms of engine and simply better workmanship than the Soviet counterpart.
When it was first publicly shown during winter maneuvers at the training ground in Żagań in 1954, it aroused the interest of the Turkish and South Korean delegations.
By the time the Korean War broke out in the summer of 1955, over 300 of these vehicles had been exported, and production was tripled thanks to American loans. Despite the appearance of its successor in the 1960s, the vehicle was produced until the 1980s, and in Turkey until the 1990s.
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Interesting. That it was an actual fighter supports your case, though the references to the Soviets cancelling purchases confuses the issue--the Soviets seem unlikely to have ever been interested in Grot. Could be either, given the timing.
Either way, though, Grot seems like the most likely actual attack plane to mark PZL's return to indigenous warplane production. Whether they can sell any overseas...different question. You might find some Latin American buyers who don't want US kit but don't want to buy communist gear, or random African countries, or perhaps Iran when the Shah goes on his buying spree, if it's any good.
At this point I'm wondering whether the first jets will be the Me262 ordered in Czechoslovakia or whether I'll wait a while and choose from other designs.
An equivalent of the PZL-11 will definitely be created. If cooperation with the Czechs was good, the project of a supersound fighter should appear in the mid-1960s. Of course, the main machines will be machines imported from the West or the East.
I still think that in 1950s the Swedish option, or cooperation with Sweden might be more plausible, assuming that Sweden agrees.
Polish and Czech Air Force could use J29 and later J35. If Poland and Czech Republic manage to but licence to produce those planes, it will give them experience necessary to produce their own supersonic plane. I think that they would start with something what allegedly TS-16 was supposed to be. i.e. an equivalent of Jaguar.
The licence makes more sense that buying the planes from East or West, since both blocks could use it to pressure Poland... like threatening with withholding spare parts supplies, updating electronics etc.
Also good idea - Puma as wheeled APC, AMX-13 based vehicles as track APC. Puma would be for lighter, faster units, the other one (let's call it Leopard) for tank-heavy units, later replaced by IFV.
While writing the rest of the story, I was stuck in the 1960s in aviation.
Theoretically, I have planned most of the purchases and production until 1962. However, I still have a conflict between full cooperation with Switzerland and purchases between France and the USSR.
Do you prefer a balanced path or full cooperation between Sweden, Poland and the Czech Republic?
Theoretically, I have planned most of the purchases and production until 1962. However, I still have a conflict between full cooperation with Switzerland and purchases between France and the USSR.
Do you prefer a balanced path or full cooperation between Sweden, Poland and the Czech Republic?
Attachments
I have my doubts about the Soviets willing to sell Poland and other "finlandized" countries their best combat equipment - USSR was paranoid and would worry, not without reason that Western Bloc intelligence would quickly get access to their gear. The same goes for the Americans and Western Bloc in general, although France might be an exception. Transport planes and helicopters might be easier to but from both blocs.
I obviously prefer my ASP idea (a cooperation between Czech Aero, Swedish SAAB and Polish PZL). Initially Sweden would be a leading partner, due to their industry being intact and their engineers and constructors being able to work in peace during WW2 and getting more and more experience. Therefore I think that Swedish planes will be the first jets in the Polish Air Force and planes like J29, A32 and J35 being the basis of the PAF (and Czech AF) in 1950s and 1960s. However I think eventually Poles and Czechs will try some designs of their own and I would like a TTL version of TS-16 becoming local equivalent of Jaguar and basic attack plane.
Training planes can be very well also Polish-Czech-Swedish coproduction or local designs, like Sk60, TS-11 or L-29, although if ASP really becomes a thing they might be a kind of monopolist for combat planes for Poland, Czech Republic and Sweden.
Initially the basic transport plane will be IMO C-47, later... I am not sure. Probably still American planes, although the Soviets here can compet. The thing is because of their purely defensive doctrine Sweden, Poland and Czech Republic will not need too many transport planes, and the ones they will want will be generally not very big. Stockholm, Warsaw and Prague will not need to transport troops and cargo far away from home. Personally I believe the Poles will want to be able to drop a reinforced batalion of paratroopers if necessary, but nothing more. So at best a few heavier planes (C-130/An-12 size) and some smaller (C-7, Il-14, An-26 or An-28).
Helicopters. Here I have my eyes on France and/or local production. Alouette II might be one of the first helicopters used by Polish Armed Forces. I also can imagine French Puma (and later Super Puma) as basic heavy helicopter. There is also a chance for American UH-1 (it was so popular the Americans would not care if the Soviets get it) or its local equivalent (Polish W-3?). Attack helicopters will be difficult, perhaps Mangusta or its local version. But that's in 1970s, probably later.
Small Plan
My little suggestion, for now due to lack of time. I am unable to add plot context.
The main reason for choosing the Mirage III instead of the J-35 will be the difference of opinion on the German issue.
The second issue will be Sweden's sudden abandonment of the development of the J-36 and nuclear weapons. It is still closely linked to the reconstruction of Germany, when Sweden will also sell them the first modern fighters.
Additionally, Mirage is a good basis for the development of machines such as Mirage 5 or IAI Kifir.
1949
200 - Spitfire
100 - Mosquito
60 - B-25
60 - Lancaster
48 - Yak-9
32 - Il-2
1950 - Purchase of 40 Me 262 (Local Name Jaskółka)
1951 - Purchase of 40 Metor NF.Mk.11 (Local name Sokół)
1952 - Purchase of 120 Hawker Hunters (Engine production) (Local name Jastrząb)
1953 - Purchase of 80 Canberras (Local name Tur)
End of 1953
60 - Spitfire
40 - Me262
40 - Metor NF.Mk.11
40 - Hunters
20 - Canberra
60 - Mosquito
1955 - Purchase of the J-32 license, 240 pieces in the Attack version and 160 Fighter versions (Local name Orzeł)
1957 - Purchase of 40 Canberas
End of 1957
40 - Me 262
40 - Metor
120 - Hunter
120 - Canberra
120 - J-32A
1958 - PZL-TS-11 Iskra
1959 - Signing of an agreement with the Czech Republic to support the development of the TS-16 (Local name Krogulec)
1961 - First flight of the TS-16
End of 1962
120 - Hunters
120 - Canberra
240 - J-32A
120 - J-32B
1963 - introduction of the TS-16 Grot into production and selection of the Mirage IIIC (local name Błotniak) as the new license
1964 Introduction of the TS-16A1
1965 - purchase of Su-7 (local name Bizon)
1966 - license for Mirage 5 ((Or development as its own counterpart)
End of 1967
60 - Hunters
80 - Canbery (most go for reconstruction as WRE and Reconnaissance planes)
120 - J-32A
120 - J-32B
80 - TS-16
120 - Mirage IIIC
60 - Su-7
20 - Mirage 5
The main reason for choosing the Mirage III instead of the J-35 will be the difference of opinion on the German issue.
The second issue will be Sweden's sudden abandonment of the development of the J-36 and nuclear weapons. It is still closely linked to the reconstruction of Germany, when Sweden will also sell them the first modern fighters.
Additionally, Mirage is a good basis for the development of machines such as Mirage 5 or IAI Kifir.
1949
200 - Spitfire
100 - Mosquito
60 - B-25
60 - Lancaster
48 - Yak-9
32 - Il-2
1950 - Purchase of 40 Me 262 (Local Name Jaskółka)
1951 - Purchase of 40 Metor NF.Mk.11 (Local name Sokół)
1952 - Purchase of 120 Hawker Hunters (Engine production) (Local name Jastrząb)
1953 - Purchase of 80 Canberras (Local name Tur)
End of 1953
60 - Spitfire
40 - Me262
40 - Metor NF.Mk.11
40 - Hunters
20 - Canberra
60 - Mosquito
1955 - Purchase of the J-32 license, 240 pieces in the Attack version and 160 Fighter versions (Local name Orzeł)
1957 - Purchase of 40 Canberas
End of 1957
40 - Me 262
40 - Metor
120 - Hunter
120 - Canberra
120 - J-32A
1958 - PZL-TS-11 Iskra
1959 - Signing of an agreement with the Czech Republic to support the development of the TS-16 (Local name Krogulec)
1961 - First flight of the TS-16
End of 1962
120 - Hunters
120 - Canberra
240 - J-32A
120 - J-32B
1963 - introduction of the TS-16 Grot into production and selection of the Mirage IIIC (local name Błotniak) as the new license
1964 Introduction of the TS-16A1
1965 - purchase of Su-7 (local name Bizon)
1966 - license for Mirage 5 ((Or development as its own counterpart)
End of 1967
60 - Hunters
80 - Canbery (most go for reconstruction as WRE and Reconnaissance planes)
120 - J-32A
120 - J-32B
80 - TS-16
120 - Mirage IIIC
60 - Su-7
20 - Mirage 5
If you are "Finlandizing" Poland, then strictly speaking, you should rule out anything with a bomb-bay. A USSR that would tolerate that many bombers (of any description) on it's borders is an unrecognizable one IMO. A handful in the 1960s as an Il-28 analogue perhaps but 80?!!
Pick any one to continue. I'm fairly agnostic on which but one is redundant in the presence of the other. I also think the numbers are excessive for what is supposedly a defensive air arm. Shouldn't a Finlandized nation be at least notionally de-fanged? Again, the USSR ITTL seems remarkably tolerant/accommodating.
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The idea rather moved to a neutral Poland between NATO and the USSR.
Restrictions on the bomb bay don't make much sense anyway, especially since Poland will have strategic bombers for the first few years anyway.
As for the number of planes, Sweden and Israel ordered a similar number. Additionally, accidents during training or even regular flights are common, so a lot of machines are purchased.
Additionally, Poland wants to develop its projects, which is why it is constructing the TS-11 and later combining its industry with the Czech.
The defense strategy in the USSR since the 1950s assumes strong air strikes on the main railway routes in the first days of the war. That's why they buy so much, plus the engine is produced in the country, which lowers costs.
Well, in fairness, it made perfect sense, if Finlandization were the goal, as it was very much a restriction Finland had to endure historically and one the USSR would doubtlessly impose but since that is no longer the case....
Still, the USSR permitting Poland strategic bombers, whatever Poland's position, enemy, neutral or even allied, strikes me as far too incredible. I also have doubts any western power would provide them and risk antagonizing the Soviets, at least until a Berlin Airlift/Iron Curtain type situation had soured relations. I think Lancasters unlikely, unless repurposed GR variants or de-converted Lancastrians and no-where near the numbers mooted.
Well, again, since Finlandization is no longer the case, that does ease matters but still, hundreds of 2 separate subsonic (vaguely transonic), Avon-powered types for an, at best middling power, seems excessive to me. Consolidating on one type would seem prudent, possibly the J32B for it's all-weather capability.
Neither Sweden or Israel share a land border with the USSR. Perceived provocation of a (let's go with) sensitive neighbour wouldn't apply in Israel's case but would certainly loom large in the procurement process of any neutral Poland. Interceptors and anti-tank types would surely be both (slightly) more palatable to the Soviets and more useful to Poland?
The Hunter replaces the last Spitfire in the line in the 1950s. Before the J-32B appears in the 1960s. So the oldest Hunters will already be 6 years old in 60s.
The event that escalated the Cold War would be the Red Offensive in Asia in 1955.