Fishbed with Phantom. Alternatives for the Polish Army after Finlandization of Poland after World War II.

[Sasza]

The thread is to focus on the possible development of the Polish Army after World War II in the event of becoming a neutral country.

Germany in this thread is subject to occupation for about 15 years and will only begin to regain independence in the 1960s.

• Armed Forces on the West. (Polskie Siły Zbrojne na Zachodzie) May 1945
  • Air Force
  • Bomber Sqaudron
  • 300 Dywizjon Bombowy „Ziemi Mazowieckiej" - Avro Lancaster Mk I and Mk III
  • No. 301 Squadron (special duties / Transport Command)/301 Dywizjon Bombowy „Ziemi Pomorskiej im. Obrońców Warszawy” - Vickers Wawrick
  • 304 Dywizjon Bombowy „Ziemi Śląskiej im. ks. Józefa Poniatowskiego” - Vickers Wellington
  • 305 Dywizjon Bombowy „Ziemi Wielkopolskiej i Lidzkiej im. Marszałka Józefa Piłsudskiego" - De Havilland Mosquito
  • Fighter Squadron
  • 302 Dywizjon Myśliwski "Poznański" - Spitfire LF XVI
  • 303 Dywizjon Myśliwski Warszawski im. Tadeusza Kościuszki - P-51 Mustang IV, IVA
  • 307 Dywizjon Myśliwski Nocny „Lwowskich Puchaczy” - De Havilland Mosquito Mk-NF.XXX
  • 308 Dywizjon Myśliwski „Krakowski” - Supermarine Spitfire LF.XVIE
  • 315 Dywizjon Myśliwski „Dębliński” - Mustang Mk-III
  • Dywizjon 316 „Warszawski” - Mustang Mk-III
  • 317 Dywizjon Myśliwski „Wileński” - Supermarine Spitfire Mk-XVI
  • 318 Dywizjon Myśliwsko-Rozpoznawczy „Gdański” - Supermarine Spitfire Mk-IX
  • Land Forces
  • I Corps
  • 1st Armored Division
  • 1st Independent Parachute Brigade,
  • 4th Infantry Division
  • 16th Independent Armoured Brigade
  • II Corps
  • 2nd Warsaw Armoured Division
  • 3rd Carpathian Infantry Division
  • 5th Kresowa Infantry Division
  • Navy
  • ORP Błyskawica
  • ORP Burza
  • ORP Piorun
  • ORP Krakowiak
  • ORP Kujawiak
  • ORP Garland
  • ORP Ślązak
  • Submarine
  • ORP Wilk
  • ORP Sokół
  • ORP Dzik
    • In Sweden
    • ORP Ryś
    • ORP Żbik
    • ORP Sęp

1. 1. Armed Forces on the East (Wojsko Polskie na Wschodzie)
      1. 1 st Polish Army
         1. 1 Warszawska Dywizja Piechoty im.Tadeusza Kościuszki
         2. 2 Warszawska Dywizja Piechoty im. Henryka Dąbrowskiego
         3. 3 Pomorska Dywizja Piechoty im. Romualda Traugutta
         4. 4 Pomorska Dywizja Piechoty im. Jana Kilińskiego
         5. 6 Pomorska Dywizja Piechoty
         6. 1 Dywizja Artylerii Przeciwlotniczej
         7. 1 Warszawska Samodzielna Brygada Kawalerii
         8. 1 Warszawska Brygada Pancerna im. Bohaterów Westerplatte (podporządkowana ACz)
         9. 1 Brygada Artylerii Armat
         10. 2 Pomorska Brygada Artylerii Haubic
         11. 3 Warszawska Brygada Artylerii Haubic
         12. 5 Brygada Artylerii Ciężkiej
         13. 4 Brygada Artylerii Przeciwpancernej
         14. 1 Warszawska Brygada Saperów
         15. 2 Brygada Zaporowa
         16. 1 Pułk Moździerzy
         17. 3 Zapasowy Pułk Piechoty
         18. 4 Pułk Czołgów Ciężkich
         19. 13 Pułk Artylerii Pancernej
         20. 1 Samodzielny Pułk Łączności
      2. 2nd Polish Army
         1. 1. 1 Drezdeński Korpus Pancerny
            2. 2 Łużycka Dywizja Artylerii
            3. 3 Dywizja Artylerii Przeciwlotniczej
            4. 5 Saska Dywizja Piechoty
            5. 7 Łużycka Dywizja Piechoty
            6. 8 Drezdeńska Dywizja Piechoty
            7. 9 Drezdeńska Dywizja Piechoty
            8. 10 Sudecka Dywizja Piechoty
            9. 4 Łużycka Brygada Saperów
            10. 9 Brygada Artylerii Przeciwpancernej
            11. 14 Brygada Artylerii Przeciwpancernej
            12. 16 Dnowsko-Łużycka Brygada Pancerna
            13. 3 Pułk Moździerzy
            14. 98 Pułk Moździerzy Gwardii
            15. 5 Zapasowy Pułk Piechoty
            16. 5 Pułk Czołgów Ciężkich
            17. 28 Pułk Artylerii Pancernej
            18. 4 Pułk Łączności
            19. 11 Batalion Budowy Mostów
            20. 14 Batalion Budowy Dróg
         2. Reserve Units
            1. 11 Dywizja Piechoty
            2. 12 Dywizja Piechoty
            3. 13 Dywizja Piechoty
            4. 14 Dywizja Piechoty
            5. 1 Brygada Zaporowa
            6. 1 Samodzielny Batalion Kobiecy im. Emilii Plater
         3. Air Force
            1. 1 Dywizja Lotnictwa Bombowego - Pe-2
            2. 2 Brandenburska Dywizja Lotnictwa Szturmowego - Ił-2
            3. 3 Brandenburska Dywizji Lotnictwa Myśliwskiego - Jak-9
   2. 4 Pomorska Mieszana Dywizja Lotnicza - Jak-1, Po-2, Ił-2
      

Together this gives us:

1. Spitfire - 80
2. Mustang - 60
3. Mosqiuto - 40
4. Wawrick - 20
5. Wellington - 20
6. Lancaster - 20
7. Pe- 2 - 96
8. Ił - 2 - 128
9. Jak - 1 - 32
10. Jak - 32
11. Po - 32

West Land Forces

1. 2 - Aromred Divisions
2. 1 - Panzer Brigade
3. 3 - Infranty Divioions
4. 1 - Parachute Brigade

East Land Forces

1. 14 - Infranty Divioions
2. 1 - Armored Brigade
3. 1 - Panzer Corps
4. 2 - Heavy Tank Regiment
5. 2 - Heavy AT Regiment

 

[marcinL]

So Poland will be dirt poor and without Soviet pressure it wont be arming itself to death in the fifties, so they will remain with whatever they are allowed to keep by the allies and the soviets. That means, in best case, the land forces will have 4 armored (3 on western and 1 on eastern equipment) and about 10 peacetime infantry divisions (after reorganization to western-ish TO&E) with mostly WW2 equipment, and only minor improvements and acquistions.

That will began to change in the sixties, with Germany regaining independence and, hopefuly, some sort of economic miracle (assuming Marshall plan or any other money inflow to Poland, access to markets and the like)

Air force might get something earlier to not be completely obsolete?

 

[Polish Eagle]

Air force might get something earlier to not be completely obsolete?

PZL was a competent design and manufacturing enterprise before the war. While Poland will rely on Allied and Soviet cast-offs, or even captured German gear (as Czechoslovakia and Spain used Me 109 clones), it's possible that they will attempt to push an indigenous fighter jet by the 1960s (IOTL, they attempted to get back into this field in the early 1960s, but Soviet pressure--they didn't want a competitor to MiG--restricted them to building MiG clones). Not just for reasons of autarky but also hoping to sell it.

I think in general, though, Spain is a good model for what the Polish Air Force would look like ITTL--it started acquiring new planes in 1955, American F-86s. Between lack of money and need to rebuild intellectual capital, I see Poland getting new stuff around the same time. Maybe British birds? Hawker Hunters?

In general, given the situation, Poland's needs would be for interceptors and attack aircraft. Funnily enough, the Avro Arrow actually sounds like something the TTL Polish Air Force would find appealing.

 

[marcinL]

PZL was a competent design and manufacturing enterprise before the war. While Poland will rely on Allied and Soviet cast-offs, or even captured German gear (as Czechoslovakia and Spain used Me 109 clones), it's possible that they will attempt to push an indigenous fighter jet by the 1960s (IOTL, they attempted to get back into this field in the early 1960s, but Soviet pressure--they didn't want a competitor to MiG--restricted them to building MiG clones). Not just for reasons of autarky but also hoping to sell it.

I think in general, though, Spain is a good model for what the Polish Air Force would look like ITTL--it started acquiring new planes in 1955, American F-86s. Between lack of money and need to rebuild intellectual capital, I see Poland getting new stuff around the same time. Maybe British birds? Hawker Hunters?

In general, given the situation, Poland's needs would be for interceptors and attack aircraft. Funnily enough, the Avro Arrow actually sounds like something the TTL Polish Air Force would find appealing.

Yeah, I could imagine some small production of WW2 clones, and then attempt at getting something more modern in mid fifties, with foreign acquisition > licence production > domestic project plan (whether it would work as intendend is another matter)

Interesting idea with Arrow

If the airforce goes west, then good chance that the tank will be of soviet origin, I think, so T-55 in the sixties?

 

[Polish Eagle]

Yeah, I could imagine some small production of WW2 clones, and then attempt at getting something more modern in mid fifties, with foreign acquisition > licence production > domestic project plan (whether it would work as intendend is another matter)

If the airforce goes west, then good chance that the tank will be of soviet origin, I think, so T-55 in the sixties?

By that time, the Soviets would be moving on to the T-62/T-64 mix, and flooding the export market with T-55s (which would also, I think, be more familiar to Polish mechanics trained on T-34s), so I would say so. Though Poland might also look to Sweden and its defense-oriented Stridsvagn 103--not like Poland has ambitions of going outward. (EDIT: Though since the T-55 was apparently having trouble piercing western tank armor by the 1950s, an upgrade similar to the Egyptian Ramses tank program or the Slovene M-55S seems likely--replace the armament with an L7 105mm, at least).

Poland would also be paying close attention to the performance of wire-guided antitank missiles in the Arab-Israeli Wars, and would likely augment the tank force with Malyutka-armed infantry.

EDIT2: If the Sino-Soviet Split also happens ITTL (which it might not--Finlandized Poland implies that the Cold War is much less severe than IOTL), Poland might buy from China instead.

 

[Monk78]

If Poland is neutral , is there anything equivalent to Warsaw pact ? Or is there a GDR ?

 

[Sasza]

I assume that it will be created within Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Germany remains united but must remain neutral and has limits on its fleet and some weapons.

So Poland will be dirt poor and without Soviet pressure it wont be arming itself to death in the fifties, so they will remain with whatever they are allowed to keep by the allies and the soviets. That means, in best case, the land forces will have 4 armored (3 on western and 1 on eastern equipment) and about 10 peacetime infantry divisions (after reorganization to western-ish TO&E) with mostly WW2 equipment, and only minor improvements and acquistions.

That will began to change in the sixties, with Germany regaining independence and, hopefuly, some sort of economic miracle (assuming Marshall plan or any other money inflow to Poland, access to markets and the like)

Air force might get something earlier to not be completely obsolete?

The assumption is simple: if there are no Katyn crimes, the second miracle on the Vistula occurs and the Red Army liberates Warsaw in the summer of 1944, while Stalin dies in the meantime.

 

[Sasza]

The Lean Years 1945-1945.

The first years of the new Poland were heavy, with war destruction leading to the complete collapse of the old state.

Additionally, now the heads of the rulers from London and those elected in the new elections in 1947, were the merger of two armies.

Another problem was a number of demands that the new government had to fulfill towards Moscow, such as the uninterrupted transfer of Soviet soldiers to Germany or the removal of Polish officers of Russian origin for some time.

After establishing a new government and eliminating the last German and Ukrainian armed groups or ordinary bandits, decisions were made to reform the army.

The number of troops was established at the 9th Infantry Division and 4th Armored Divisions, 1st Parachute Brigade, 2nd Mountain Divisions, 2nd Heavy Tank Brigades and 1st Tank Destroyer Brigade. The 4th Division was established as a reserve.

So far, the focus has been on the replacement of small arms and their new projects. The MG42 and Stg44 from German resources attracted quite a lot of interest.

A very large number of Panther Tigers and Stugs were also removed from the battlefields. Most of them were pulled from rivers and lakes and were unusable. However, some of them were renovated and used for research and training. Ultimately, almost a company of various Wehrmacht equipment will survive in working condition in Poland until the 1960s, thanks to which many films in the future will feature scenes with these monsters.


In the case of aviation it was easier. A decision was made to immediately withdraw Soviet planes and replace them with Western planes.

The biggest problem was between the Spitfire or the P-51. Ultimately, the Spitfire was chosen due to the larger number of trained pilots. Additional fighters were obtained from RAF surplus.

As part of the unification, in addition to the Spitfires, a number of Mosquitos and B-25s were also acquired.

The command also wanted to acquire new heavy bombers, but the possible costs terrified the government and it was decided to settle for increasing the number of Lancasters.

Finally, 1949 was drawing to a close

200 - Spitfire
100 - Mosquito
60 - B-25
60 - Lancaster
48 - Yak-9
32 - Il-2

 

[marcinL]

I assume that it will be created within Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Germany remains united but must remain neutral and has limits on its fleet and some weapons.

I suggest some sort of alliance between Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, while former axis satelites are at least initially more under Soviet control

The assumption is simple: if there are no Katyn crimes, the second miracle on the Vistula occurs and the Red Army liberates Warsaw in the summer of 1944, while Stalin dies in the meantime.

Rudy 102 takes the bridge 🙂

 

[marcinL]

The Lean Years 1945-1945.

The first years of the new Poland were heavy, with war destruction leading to the complete collapse of the old state.

Additionally, now the heads of the rulers from London and those elected in the new elections in 1947, were the merger of two armies.

Another problem was a number of demands that the new government had to fulfill towards Moscow, such as the uninterrupted transfer of Soviet soldiers to Germany or the removal of Polish officers of Russian origin for some time.

After establishing a new government and eliminating the last German and Ukrainian armed groups or ordinary bandits, decisions were made to reform the army.

The number of troops was established at the 9th Infantry Division and 4th Armored Divisions, 1st Parachute Brigade, 2nd Mountain Divisions, 2nd Heavy Tank Brigades and 1st Tank Destroyer Brigade. The 4th Division was established as a reserve.

So far, the focus has been on the replacement of small arms and their new projects. The MG42 and Stg44 from German resources attracted quite a lot of interest.

A very large number of Panther Tigers and Stugs were also removed from the battlefields. Most of them were pulled from rivers and lakes and were unusable. However, some of them were renovated and used for research and training. Ultimately, almost a company of various Wehrmacht equipment will survive in working condition in Poland until the 1960s, thanks to which many films in the future will feature scenes with these monsters.


In the case of aviation it was easier. A decision was made to immediately withdraw Soviet planes and replace them with Western planes.

The biggest problem was between the Spitfire or the P-51. Ultimately, the Spitfire was chosen due to the larger number of trained pilots. Additional fighters were obtained from RAF surplus.

As part of the unification, in addition to the Spitfires, a number of Mosquitos and B-25s were also acquired.

The command also wanted to acquire new heavy bombers, but the possible costs terrified the government and it was decided to settle for increasing the number of Lancasters.

Finally, 1949 was drawing to a close

200 - Spitfire
100 - Mosquito
60 - B-25
60 - Lancaster
48 - Yak-9
32 - Il-2

If I may:
Peacetime organization:
5th Anti Tank Bde
6th Anti Tank Bde
20th Heavy Artillery Bde
25th Rocket Artillery Bde

Pomeranian Military District
4th Armored Division
8th Infantry Division
12th Infantry Division
16th Infantry Division
24th Sea Rifles Bde (sorta-kinda naval infantry unit)

Silesian Military District
14th Armored Division
15th Infantry Division
17th Infantry Division
22nd Mountain Division

Masovian Military District
2nd Armored Division
6th Airborne Division (mostly an ambition project)
7th Infantry Division
9th Infantry Division
10th Infantry Division

Lesser Polish Military District
1st Armored Division
3rd Infantry Division
5th Infantry Division
11th Infantry Division
21st Mountain Division

I dont think there would have equipment for heavy tank brigades, otl Poland ended the war with a dozen or two IS tanks.

Now, as post war, funds or not, Poland tried to regain the ability to domestically produce armaments, there was a program to develop a domestic tank, artillery, aircraft etc. The resulting tank was rather unimpressive, not offering anything beyond what already owned Shermans and T-34 had, while suffering from various reliability problems and high production costs, and never went beyond limited production, but the related tank destroyer and SP gun projects, due to very simple construction, proved more successful, and would be produced in large numbers. Furthermore, Poland received, as part of the payment for exported coal, a small number of new T-34 and larger number of surplus SU-76, between that, already owned equipment, and domestic production allowing to equip the infantry divisions with fully mechanized anti tank battalions.

In those circumstances, following 1955 Poland began seeking a new tank abroad.

The artillery program (polish artillery consisted of a mishmash of British, American, Soviet, captured German, and even recovered prewar pieces, and the General Staff has seen the need to standarize the equipment) was conducted in cooperation with Czechoslovakia, and basically consisted of dusting off and modernizing prewar plans. Both countries decided to pick the caliber mix identical with American artillery, resulting in wz. 1949 light howitzer 105mm and wz. 1950 medium howitzer 155mm. 1000 pieces of the former and 300 of the lattter were produced for Poland in the following decade, with additional couple hundred for export.

 

[seraphim74]

I suggest some sort of alliance between Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, while former axis satelites are at least initially more under Soviet control

Rudy 102 takes the bridge 🙂

Long, long time ago I wrote* about something I called the White Belt a kind of unofficial alliance of neutral/finlandized countries -Poland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Austria and Yugoslavia - as a buffor zone between the Western Block (with whole Germany taken by the Allies) and the Soviet Block (with Slovakia, Hungary, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria). IIRC correctly I saw Poland as equipped initially with a mix of Western and Soviet gear and then creating new weapons, vehicles and aircraft in cooperation with those countries with some imports/licenses. I think that could work ITTL too, e.g. Poland, Czechoslovakia and Sweden creating a kind of consortium of Aero, SAAB and PZL, let's call it ASP, to produce jet fighters, Skoda and Ursus cooperating in building tanks and combat vehicles etc.
All those neutral countries will still be worried about the Bear, but I think they would be willing to buy some of the Soviet gear.
I also think that Poland would mantain obligatory military service, so the Army would be relatively big, although designed mostly as defensive force, with strong anti-tank and anti-air elementy, and less tanks. For economic reason I think Poland would have smaller armed force than PRL, slowly going towards professional armed forces +big territorial defence.
Another problem would be demographics. Poland suffered VERY heavy losses in WW2 so there will be a problem with manpower. ITTL it will be a little better - the Polish forces from the West come home, just as many civilian refugees, and there are no persecutions of the Home Army soldiers. It means Poland gets/does not lose many educated specialists priceless for reconstruction of the country and its armed forces. However, Poland lost disproportionally big part of its best educated people (they were specifically targeted by the Germans and initially the Soviets), so there will still be a shortage of educated men or even trained mechanics everywhere and that means the armed forces too. After some time it will change, but in early years Poland simply will have not enough officers/specialists to mantain big, modern army

 

[lukedalton]

If Poland become more or less like Finland, well i doubt that the west will give her advanced military tech as they will fear that they will pass it to the Russian or at least give them access...that was OTL Finland treatment

 

[marcinL]

Long, long time ago I wrote* about something I called the White Belt a kind of unofficial alliance of neutral/finlandized countries -Poland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Austria and Yugoslavia - as a buffor zone between the Western Block (with whole Germany taken by the Allies) and the Soviet Block (with Slovakia, Hungary, Albania, Romania and Bulgaria). IIRC correctly I saw Poland as equipped initially with a mix of Western and Soviet gear and then creating new weapons, vehicles and aircraft in cooperation with those countries with some imports/licenses. I think that could work ITTL too, e.g. Poland, Czechoslovakia and Sweden creating a kind of consortium of Aero, SAAB and PZL, let's call it ASP, to produce jet fighters, Skoda and Ursus cooperating in building tanks and combat vehicles etc.
All those neutral countries will still be worried about the Bear, but I think they would be willing to buy some of the Soviet gear.
I also think that Poland would mantain obligatory military service, so the Army would be relatively big, although designed mostly as defensive force, with strong anti-tank and anti-air elementy, and less tanks. For economic reason I think Poland would have smaller armed force than PRL, slowly going towards professional armed forces +big territorial defence.
Another problem would be demographics. Poland suffered VERY heavy losses in WW2 so there will be a problem with manpower. ITTL it will be a little better - the Polish forces from the West come home, just as many civilian refugees, and there are no persecutions of the Home Army soldiers. It means Poland gets/does not lose many educated specialists priceless for reconstruction of the country and its armed forces. However, Poland lost disproportionally big part of its best educated people (they were specifically targeted by the Germans and initially the Soviets), so there will still be a shortage of educated men or even trained mechanics everywhere and that means the armed forces too. After some time it will change, but in early years Poland simply will have not enough officers/specialists to mantain big, modern army

Sure, conscription would stay, but due to budget reasons, and probably Soviet pressure, peacetime army would have to stay on the smallish side, and there likely would be no 50s buildup, although, with Marshall plan there would be no so deep reduction. So, peacetime size about 180, maybe 200 k.

Also, with "2nd Miracle of Vistula", Soviets take Warsaw early, so less damage and smaller losses here.

 

[Sasza]

Sure, conscription would stay, but due to budget reasons, and probably Soviet pressure, peacetime army would have to stay on the smallish side, and there likely would be no 50s buildup, although, with Marshall plan there would be no so deep reduction. So, peacetime size about 180, maybe 200 k.

Also, with "2nd Miracle of Vistula", Soviets take Warsaw early, so less damage and smaller losses here.

Immediately after the OTL war, the number of troops dropped to only 100,000, it may be similar here.

Conscription will be maintained only for the first years, it will be very limited and during this time the army will rather focus on fighting against Germans, Ukrainians or ordinary bandits. In addition, the resettlement campaign in the West and East in the 1950s, Poland will also launch a recruitment campaign among the remaining Polish diaspora in the USSR. Maybe we can have 40 million.

When funds from the Marshall Plan began to flow in 1949, they would first go to the development of agriculture. I think Poland would be the 5th or 6th overall benefit of the Marshal plan.

I assume that the Cold War will become a fierce competition after the fall of Dien Bien Phu, the removal of Beria and the rise of hardliners.

 

[Sasza]

If I may:
Peacetime organization:
5th Anti Tank Bde
6th Anti Tank Bde
20th Heavy Artillery Bde
25th Rocket Artillery Bde

Pomeranian Military District
4th Armored Division
8th Infantry Division
12th Infantry Division
16th Infantry Division
24th Sea Rifles Bde (sorta-kinda naval infantry unit)

Silesian Military District
14th Armored Division
15th Infantry Division
17th Infantry Division
22nd Mountain Division

Masovian Military District
2nd Armored Division
6th Airborne Division (mostly an ambition project)
7th Infantry Division
9th Infantry Division
10th Infantry Division

Lesser Polish Military District
1st Armored Division
3rd Infantry Division
5th Infantry Division
11th Infantry Division
21st Mountain Division

I dont think there would have equipment for heavy tank brigades, otl Poland ended the war with a dozen or two IS tanks.

Now, as post war, funds or not, Poland tried to regain the ability to domestically produce armaments, there was a program to develop a domestic tank, artillery, aircraft etc. The resulting tank was rather unimpressive, not offering anything beyond what already owned Shermans and T-34 had, while suffering from various reliability problems and high production costs, and never went beyond limited production, but the related tank destroyer and SP gun projects, due to very simple construction, proved more successful, and would be produced in large numbers. Furthermore, Poland received, as part of the payment for exported coal, a small number of new T-34 and larger number of surplus SU-76, between that, already owned equipment, and domestic production allowing to equip the infantry divisions with fully mechanized anti tank battalions.

In those circumstances, following 1955 Poland began seeking a new tank abroad.

The artillery program (polish artillery consisted of a mishmash of British, American, Soviet, captured German, and even recovered prewar pieces, and the General Staff has seen the need to standarize the equipment) was conducted in cooperation with Czechoslovakia, and basically consisted of dusting off and modernizing prewar plans. Both countries decided to pick the caliber mix identical with American artillery, resulting in wz. 1949 light howitzer 105mm and wz. 1950 medium howitzer 155mm. 1000 pieces of the former and 300 of the lattter were produced for Poland in the following decade, with additional couple hundred for export.

The project was good, but the future airborne division was likely to come from the 1st Brigade, not the 6th Infantry Division.

I don't see the need to create a marine infantry until the 1960s, when the UN missions in Africa and the Middle East will begin.

I think that the first new tank in Poland would be the AMX-13, it would replace Stuarts, Cromwells and other Soviet light tanks. Poles, like Israel, would use Shermans until the 1960s and use their modifications to build their own industry.

However, the Navy will have a fat years after the war, as the Germans will take over 1 Type XXI ship, 4 Type IX ships and 2 Type VII ships.

Additionally, there will be Z23 and Z31. Various LSDs and LSTs will be borrowed from the Allies to support the transport of soldiers to the country.

 

[seraphim74]

Conscription will be maintained only for the first years, it will be very limited and during this time the army will rather focus on fighting against Germans, Ukrainians or ordinary bandits. In addition, the resettlement campaign in the West and East in the 1950s, Poland will also launch a recruitment campaign among the remaining Polish diaspora in the USSR. Maybe we can have 40 million.

Highly doubtful. AFAIK after the war Poland had about 24 milions of people. Let's say 27 milions, with smaller war losses and return of the most of war refugees, Free Polish forces, migrates from USSR (if the Soviets let them go) etc. Poland however never in the 1900s had 40 milions, the closest we were to that number was around year 2000.

When funds from the Marshall Plan began to flow in 1949, they would first go to the development of agriculture. I think Poland would be the 5th or 6th overall benefit of the Marshal plan.

Agriculture yes, but I think mostly to rebuild infrastructure, develop industry and education.

 

[marcinL]

The project was good, but the future airborne division was likely to come from the 1st Brigade, not the 6th Infantry Division.

The numbers I assigned are mostly random

I don't see the need to create a marine infantry until the 1960s, when the UN missions in Africa and the Middle East will begin.

Basically a small unit that is supposed to keep amphibious skills in the army, and if things go bad, invade Rugia

I think that the first new tank in Poland would be the AMX-13, it would replace Stuarts, Cromwells and other Soviet light tanks. Poles, like Israel, would use Shermans until the 1960s and use their modifications to build their own industry.

I was thinking about licence production of T-55, with various domestic upgrades, followed by an improved variant of AMX-30 in the seventies, then again cooperation with France resulting in alt-Leclerc in the mid 80s, with possibility of a future, possibly 4th generation tank in 2010s.

So, T-55 replace the tanks in armored divisions, while WW2 tanks are passed to infantry that is turned into mechanized divisions, though eventually enough T-55s are produced to be the sole tank in active army's arsenal, though for a very short time.

However, the Navy will have a difficult time after the war, as the Germans will take over 1 Type XXI ship, 4 Type IX ships and 2 Type VII ships.

Additionally, there will be Z23 and Z31. Various LSDs and LSTs will be borrowed from the Allies to support the transport of soldiers to the country.

?

 

[marcinL]

Highly doubtful. AFAIK after the war Poland had about 24 milions of people. Let's say 27 milions, with smaller war losses and return of the most of war refugees, Free Polish forces, migrates from USSR (if the Soviets let them go) etc. Poland however never in the 1900s had 40 milions, the closest we were to that number was around year 2000.

Agriculture yes, but I think mostly to rebuild infrastructure, develop industry and education.

Unless Polish economic Miracle in the 60s and 70s brings in some immigrants. I doubt it would be large numbers, if any, though, as Poland would be able to first utilize the rural population.

 

[Sasza]

The numbers I assigned are mostly random

Basically a small unit that is supposed to keep amphibious skills in the army, and if things go bad, invade Rugia

I was thinking about licence production of T-55, with various domestic upgrades, followed by an improved variant of AMX-30 in the seventies, then again cooperation with France resulting in alt-Leclerc in the mid 80s, with possibility of a future, possibly 4th generation tank in 2010s.

So, T-55 replace the tanks in armored divisions, while WW2 tanks are passed to infantry that is turned into mechanized divisions, though eventually enough T-55s are produced to be the sole tank in active army's arsenal, though for a very short time.

?

autocorrect. These were supposed to be fat years. The former Kriegsmarine will provide two destroyers and several submarines, and the Allies will also provide landing means.

 

[Sasza]

I was thinking about licence production of T-55, with various domestic upgrades, followed by an improved variant of AMX-30 in the seventies, then again cooperation with France resulting in alt-Leclerc in the mid 80s, with possibility of a future, possibly 4th generation tank in 2010s.

So, T-55 replace the tanks in armored divisions, while WW2 tanks are passed to infantry that is turned into mechanized divisions, though eventually enough T-55s are produced to be the sole tank in active army's arsenal, though for a very short time.

Money for a new tank appeared only at the end of the 1950s, but Poland is not an industrial economy of the West and population decline.

The AMX-13 chassis will also be used for specialized vehicles such as command vehicles.

Agriculture yes, but I think mostly to rebuild infrastructure, develop industry and education.

The money for this will appear in subsequent tranches in the years 50-51.

60% of the population still lives from agriculture after the war and funds are needed for further agricultural reform. Additionally, it will help you overcome hunger.

I assume that when the Cold War begins to gain momentum, the USA will quietly start granting us loans, following the example of Yugoslavia. I assume the Iron Curtain will move further south and Greece will fall into the Eastern Bloc.