I don't think Togliatti, quite Stalinist for PCI standards
, could really enforce a Stalin veto on a revolution. Italian comunism has a POD wrt world comunism: Gramsci
Fiori di maggio: the Kingdom of Italy after WWII
- Thread starter DonFitzcarraldo
- Start date
I don't think Togliatti, quite Stalinist for PCI standards
, could really enforce a Stalin veto on a revolution. Italian comunism has a POD wrt world comunism: Gramsci
What Francisco said. De Gasperi was a very formal individual in public.
Edited accordingly.
La Repubblica was founded in 1976. Since the tone of the article is mainstream I'd suggest it might be either "Il Corriere della Sera" of Milan or "Il Messaggero" of Rome. If it is supposed to be printed in a leftist newspaper it would be "L'Unita'".
This is not OTL La Repubblica; it is the entirely TTL moderate leftist paper which I will be using when I need a moderate leftist tone
The excerpt of the speech from the king would have to come before Togliatti's speech. I do feel however that Umberto's words are too harsh and not in line with either his personality or his position as a constitutional king.
Again, leftist paper. Togliatti's fiery denunciation followed by an opposing snippet that makes Umberto look like a rude hardliner? Good press, especially after referring to VE3's "weaknesses" and "collaboration with a tyrant." And anyhow, although Umberto's public statements have thus far been conciliatory, but tempers and tensions are running high around a delicate issue so I figured giving him a bit of a bite was hardly ASB.
More importantly, which elections "still months away"?
<snippet>
With the PCI leaving the governing coalition as I mentioned in the OP, our good friends in the DC and the aforementioned smaller-right parties have been able to hold together with a handful of moderates. That is not a state of affairs which can continue forever, hence incoming elections roughly the same time as OTL.
As for the Constitution, it remains more or less the Statuto Alberto; which of course even with modifications is outdated as hell by now. Italy is still undergoing a substantial de-fascist-ification process at the moment and Mussolini-era revisions to the Statuto, among other things, are now out the window. Very, very few people are happy with the Constitution as it stands and that will be reflected later on; but it was considered unappealing that any major revisions or constitutional convention-type event take place amid the turmoil, especially by the US who is worried that the damn Reds might slip an "Italian SSR" provision in there somewhere.
Addressed above.
They sure as hell aren't anymore!PS:
"Anti-monarchist riots in Turin resulted in significant damage to the Palazzo Reale di Torino and had to be suppressed by police before order could be fully restored."
... The Savoys are not liked in their homeland ...
I agree that , the party supported the republic and De Gasperi wasn't for the Monarchy at all. I think it wouldn't happen nothing but this thread is built around another premise.
A case isn't e nough to make killings between italian partisans a common thing and the red triangle is a debated thing but we are off topic.
With a more conservative constitution and DC, and an isolated PCI the left-wing of the demochristian party could secede, wild but interesting theory.
Porzus is the most famous one, it was not common but neither unhearded and the only thing debated in the red triangle is the right number of victim, but back on topic...what the mean of 'more conservative constitution'?
No vote to the women? Depending of the PoD the referendum is the first time women voted.
Communist party outlawed? I doubt it...at least in the beginning, after the violence escalate it's much more possible.
No divorce or abort? Already illegal.
Probably the biggest difference will be on the local autonomies and the anathema of a strong executive power (but this is much more difficult due to nation just being out of the fascist dictatorship)
Smooth.
Things get interesting ... cogratulations
OTL they just managed to slip "L'Italia è una Repubblica democratica, fondata sul lavoro." right on Art. 1
Wait a moment.
We are in 1946,the war is over.
The choice is not between democracy and authoritarian government,the choice is between Parliamentary Republic and Costitutional Monarchy,a Monarchy not different from that in United Kingdom or in North Europe.
A Monarchy in which the King is only a symbol,a guarantor,a notary, exactly as the President of Republic.
So if in 1946 Monarchy win the referendum,and Umberto is King,the history not change much.
In 1948 the new Costitution is signed by the King (as in OTL by President De Nicola),in May 1948 Christian Democratics win the political election defeating the communists (like in OTL),and Italy is a western democracy with a costituzional King.
The only change is that the changing of the guard at Quirinale Palace is more choreographic for the joy of tourists.
Wrong!
With the decree of Umberto (Decreto luogotenenziale) of June 25 1944 was established the procedure for the next assembly for the new Constitution:
http://www.parlalex.it/pagina.asp?id=2822
You know, there's nothing more that I, the author of this TL, like more than when people shout "wrong!" at me in an attempt to correct the fictional world of my creation. Not in a constructive manner, no, but shouting it.
Anyhow, I am aware of that decree, as it has been previously brought to my attention. To quote myself on the matter of that Assembly and her results:
"It was considered unappealing that any major revisions or constitutional convention-type event take place amid the turmoil, especially by the US who is worried that the damn Reds might slip an 'Italian SSR' provision in there somewhere."
The makeup of that Assembly, as you can imagine, was significantly more conservative.
I am sorry if it looks like I'm pissing on your parade, but I have to say that your research for this TL has not been up to par. The DLL of March 1946 (mandating the institutional referendum and the election of the constitutional assembly) is not the beginning of the road but just a step in a process which started in 1943 with the first Badoglio government.
The RDL 706 of 2 August 1943 dissolved the Chamber of the Fasces and Corporations and mandated general elections and the sitting of a new parliament within 4 months from the end of the state of war.
The successive governments (Badoglio I & II, Bonomi I & 2, Parri, De Gasperi I) ruled by decree since there was not a sitting parliament. The constitutional framework was the pre-1922 Albertine Statute (i.e. all the modifications imposed by the Fascist regime to the Statute were declared null and void).
Starting with Bonomi I these governments were called "CLN Governments": the Committee for National Liberation (firstly established on 9 September 1943) was composed of delegates from the major Italian parties (DC, PSIUP, PCI, Action Party, Liberal Party and Democratic Labor) and coordinated (more or less) the resistance in Italy besides providing a political support for the governments. It did not include all anti-fascist organizations in Italy though.
Fast forward to 1944: the DLL 151 on 25 June 1944 abrogated the disposition for general elections stipulated in the RDL of 2 August 1943 and mandated the election of a Constituent Assembly to prepare the new constitutional chart of Italy.
On 5 April 1945 the DLL 146 created a National Consultative Assembly (the DLL 168 of 30 April 1945 dealt with the appointment of the members of this Consultative Assembly and the DLL 549 of 31 August 1945 regulated the works). The key word here is "appointment": the members of this Assembly were not elected but appointed upon recommendations by the CLN members (although some other organizations not included in CLN got some members too), the government had to refer to it just for budget and financial laws, taxation and electoral laws but the recommendations of the NCA were not binding on the government. The first sitting of the NCA was on 25 September 1945, the last one on 10 March 1946. On 1st June 1946 it automatically dissolved.
Finally on 16 March 1946 the DLL 98 , with reference to the DLL 151 of 1944, decreed an institutional referendum to be held on the same date of the elections for the Constituent Assembly (2 June 1946) and specified that in case the referendum had gone in favor of the republican form the first act of the Constituent Assembly would be to elect a provisional head of state (as it happened OTL).
I am sure you can see the problem: if there is no constituent assembly then general elections must be called in the second half of 1945. The commitment to a constitutional revision was very strong and one of the few things on which a general consensus might be achieved. Most importantly there was a very important problem: the general elections could be held in abeyance while the war was on but this situation represented an obvious constitutional vulnus to the Albertine Statute and it certainly was not the best way to start a new democratic page in Italy. Your hand-waving of this issue is less than impressive (I refer to the bolded portion of your quote). I suppose that it might be possible to have general elections together with the referendum; having general elections and subsequently call for the referendum might be better and more democratic. A referendum which is held in isolation (i.e. not together with elections to a constituent assembly or general elections) and does not come after general elections is unrealistic.
All the documents I referred to are available on internet and there is a wealth of information too on the transitional period between the fall of Mussolini and the approval of the new Italian constitution. It should not be too difficult to access them.
Last edited:
"I am sorry if it looks like I'm pissing on your parade, but I have to say that your research for this TL has not been up to par."
Oh, you very much are pissing on my parade. As it turns out, however, you clearly have a damn good reason for doing so. I admit that the TL idea was mostly an idea which sprang into my head and the little updates going forwards were just manufactured as I went along. However, it seems that so much of the fundamentals which would have to have already been laid down in order for functioning TTL governance to occur have been neglected due to shoddy research, and then handwaved once brought to my attention.
That does not make for plausibility, nor does it make for good TL writing.
Therefore the only options I can see are either a substantial reworking of portions of the last update and possibly others, as well as a reworking of the TTL political situation (which really seems more like a reboot) or to put this on ice and move on to periods I am either more familiar with or willing to become more familiar with. Taking into consideration my time constraints, my lack of experience writing TLs, and a host of other things I believe the responsible thing to do would be to suspend Fiori di maggio until further notice and probable reboot in the far future.
That was constructive criticism; and criticism which I needed so I thank you for it. I do however hope, as an aside, that you and others who have spent the last few paged nitpicking (or not-so-nitpicking) and discussing OTL Italian politics during this period at least enjoyed reading the damn updates
Kindly,
DonFitzcarraldo
Oh, you very much are pissing on my parade. As it turns out, however, you clearly have a damn good reason for doing so. I admit that the TL idea was mostly an idea which sprang into my head and the little updates going forwards were just manufactured as I went along. However, it seems that so much of the fundamentals which would have to have already been laid down in order for functioning TTL governance to occur have been neglected due to shoddy research, and then handwaved once brought to my attention.
That does not make for plausibility, nor does it make for good TL writing.
Therefore the only options I can see are either a substantial reworking of portions of the last update and possibly others, as well as a reworking of the TTL political situation (which really seems more like a reboot) or to put this on ice and move on to periods I am either more familiar with or willing to become more familiar with. Taking into consideration my time constraints, my lack of experience writing TLs, and a host of other things I believe the responsible thing to do would be to suspend Fiori di maggio until further notice and probable reboot in the far future.
That was constructive criticism; and criticism which I needed so I thank you for it. I do however hope, as an aside, that you and others who have spent the last few paged nitpicking (or not-so-nitpicking) and discussing OTL Italian politics during this period at least enjoyed reading the damn updates
Kindly,
DonFitzcarraldo
"I am sorry if it looks like I'm pissing on your parade, but I have to say that your research for this TL has not been up to par."
Oh, you very much are pissing on my parade. As it turns out, however, you clearly have a damn good reason for doing so. I admit that the TL idea was mostly an idea which sprang into my head and the little updates going forwards were just manufactured as I went along. However, it seems that so much of the fundamentals which would have to have already been laid down in order for functioning TTL governance to occur have been neglected due to shoddy research, and then handwaved once brought to my attention.
That does not make for plausibility, nor does it make for good TL writing.
Therefore the only options I can see are either a substantial reworking of portions of the last update and possibly others, as well as a reworking of the TTL political situation (which really seems more like a reboot) or to put this on ice and move on to periods I am either more familiar with or willing to become more familiar with. Taking into consideration my time constraints, my lack of experience writing TLs, and a host of other things I believe the responsible thing to do would be to suspend Fiori di maggio until further notice and probable reboot in the far future.
That was constructive criticism; and criticism which I needed so I thank you for it. I do however hope, as an aside, that you and others who have spent the last few paged nitpicking (or not-so-nitpicking) and discussing OTL Italian politics during this period at least enjoyed reading the damn updates
Kindly,
DonFitzcarraldo
Thanks for your gracious words and for understanding and accepting that my criticism was constructive and had the aim to help you writing a better TL.
The POD was interesting, and I believe that Umberto deserves a TL. his life was never an easy one, and he was always in a difficult position: under the Fascism, during his Lieutenancy of the kingdom of Italy and during his long exile (the last made even worse by his family troubles). The man is still a bit of a cipher: I don't believe he would have been a great king but a "great king" is possibly the last thing which might be needed in a modern democracy. Certainly he had a sense of duty, and his greatest legacy was when he immediately accepted the result of the referendum and left for exile. A different man might have contested the results and thrown Italy into a spiral of violence and division.
I also am firmly convinced that to save the institute of monarchy in Italy an earlier POD would be required: the passivity with which VE III accepted the March on Rome, the establishment of the fascist regime and the racial laws were mirrored by his lack of guidance and pro-active action in the second half of 1943. He did not act as a king, but rather looked like a sad caricature in a bad tragicomedy. He had to abdicate early (and the sooner the better) since he was not willing (or capable) of leading a nation.
I do hope anyway that the outcome of your first attempt to write a TL will not deter you from trying again in the future. Just a word of advice: preparation, research and planning are essential for a good outcome and trying to manage everything on the fly seldom results in a success.
The monarchy winning the election OTL would have shifted powers significantly. Savoys, the aristocracy and the Church (esp the conservatives) will not resist into mingling in the constitution and in the subsequent state.
"L'Italia è una monarchia oligarchica fondata sulla rendita e l'appannaggio sociale. "
Last edited:
1) The POD as far I understood is before, during the resistance, so much may change.
2) As you correctly researched, the referendum and the election of Constituent Assembly was held the same day. If the referendum is rigged and monarchist then the Constituent Assembly will also be rigged and conservative.
Last edited:
"I am sorry if it looks like I'm pissing on your parade, but I have to say that your research for this TL has not been up to par."
Oh, you very much are pissing on my parade. As it turns out, however, you clearly have a damn good reason for doing so. I admit that the TL idea was mostly an idea which sprang into my head and the little updates going forwards were just manufactured as I went along. However, it seems that so much of the fundamentals which would have to have already been laid down in order for functioning TTL governance to occur have been neglected due to shoddy research, and then handwaved once brought to my attention.
That does not make for plausibility, nor does it make for good TL writing.
Therefore the only options I can see are either a substantial reworking of portions of the last update and possibly others, as well as a reworking of the TTL political situation (which really seems more like a reboot) or to put this on ice and move on to periods I am either more familiar with or willing to become more familiar with. Taking into consideration my time constraints, my lack of experience writing TLs, and a host of other things I believe the responsible thing to do would be to suspend Fiori di maggio until further notice and probable reboot in the far future.
That was constructive criticism; and criticism which I needed so I thank you for it. I do however hope, as an aside, that you and others who have spent the last few paged nitpicking (or not-so-nitpicking) and discussing OTL Italian politics during this period at least enjoyed reading the damn updates
Kindly,
DonFitzcarraldo
Yes, this forum is very nitpicking and maybe rightly so. I've experienced myself just by trying to gather ideas and facts for a TL. Failing so I didn't try to write one (also I'm also a terrible writer).
However there are who in this forum know all the details but lose the grand picture: they know history but not historiography. Also the forum has at least an Anglo-American plurality and their view of history.
I think your TL was an excellent idea, as far as I got it:
1) Stronger Partisan movement and involvement
2) Afraid of (1) the allies try to sideline the partisans and rely on monarchy.
1 + 2 = Big mess and great space for major historical course change.
With your TL, you make the referendum and constituent assembly election MORE important than the famous 1948 elections.
It is sad to see your TL interrupted, too many promising TL ended this way, and even the good TL had really a hard time. Personal research is good but boring. Maybe you should turn this post or open a new one on discussion, fact gathering, and ideas for this TL.
abc123
Banned
Sorry, I have to say that I can't see why would Italy as a monarchy ( except for the rule of cool ) manage much better ( Rhodes, Istria as independent country etc. ) than IOTL.
As much as I would like to see Italy as Kingdom, I sincerely doubt that it can be in any other borders than OTL.
As much as I would like to see Italy as Kingdom, I sincerely doubt that it can be in any other borders than OTL.
Last edited:
I agree, for this reason i thought that the PoD was a better management of the surrender, with the italian army still a somewhat viable force capable of having a greater influx on the liberation of the penisula and getting in Istria before the Yugoslav this can happen, if united as a greater fear of communism present ITTL (so Italy due to his position is seen an important asset), maybe the Wallies have liberated Czech (but not slovakia) and there are civil problem with the local communist, maybe Austria don't have a Soviet sector and this create a diplomatic backlash and both situation exist due to a better italian campaign
The communist will still be a force to be reckoned, but somewhat diminished compared to OTL and the winning of the monarchy is the tip that make the leadership of the PCI more radicalizated than OTL so they try to pull of a Greece.
abc123
Banned
The thing is, if Tito's Partisans came there first ( and a very good POD is required so that is not so ), they will not retreat from anywhere east of Trieste, and from there only under great pressure- in favour of Italy as republic or monarchy or any other solution that leaves Istra and Gorica out of Yugoslavia.
And I don't see that USA or UK or Soviet Union will back Italy more because it's monarchy instead of republic.
The monarchy winning the election OTL would have shifted powers significantly. Savoys, the aristocracy and the Church (esp the conservatives) will not resist into mingling in the constitution and in the subsequent state.
"L'Italia è una monarchia oligarchica fondata sulla rendita e l'appannaggio sociale. "
I feel i bit of racism here.
Italy was a costitutional Monarchy from 1861 to 1923.
Maybe a little disorganized but not less democratic than UK in the same period.
After the twenty years of fascism,the democratic path restart.
King or President of Republic the last word were to the voters.
In a Costitutional Monarchy the King accepts and certifies the verdict of the polls.
Not only the British Kings and Queens are able to accept the rule of democracy.
The POD is very vague, and smells of handwavium. The performance of the Italian resistance was certainly pretty good IOTL but the truth is that on their own they could not have liberated Italy.
During the period of the so-called CNL governments Togliatti was pretty constant in his support for the unity of the different forces in the coalition (be it because Stalin had ordered not to rock the boat or because Togliatti saw the impossibility of a communist revolution in Italy and preferred to operate on the basis of a more long-term strategy does not matter). The only parties who were in favor of a complete break with the past were the Action Party and (partially) the PSIUP (Christian-Democrats, Liberals and PDL were clearly on more moderate if not conservative positions): the contrasts between the massimalist faction and the moderate one were the ultimate downfall of the Parri government in December 1945 and opened the door for the first De Gasperi ministry.
You may remember that my first assumption was that the POD had happened in 1943 with a better management of the armistice and a serious attempt to defend Rome.
Since this did not happen ITTL, the likelihood of a referendum confirming the monarchy was pretty low unless some very obvious fix had been put in place.
The Wallies were obviously monitoring very closely the political situation in Italy and I don't think that they were unduly worried or even that they could have been so desperate to mastermind a farcical (and obviously rigged) referendum in northern Italy. Obviously they were worried by the expansionist policies set up by Stalin in eastern Europe and they had realized that the hope of free elections in places like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and so on was just a pipe dream; this worries did not extend to Italy though and their analysis was also backed by the promptness with which the Resistance handed back their arms (or at least most of them) in May 1945 (the communist scare will come a bit later, starting with the relatively close call the general elections of 1948, then with the war of Korea). So no obvious fix is needed.
IMHO what happened IOTL was (for once) the best of possible worlds: the republic wins, Umberto accepts the result, there is no civil war.
It looks like you may have missed my point though: I was not interested in nitpicking on what was or was not written in the DLL of March 1946, I was rather trying to show that since August 1943 there had been in place a path to restore democracy in Italy based on general elections "within 4 months from the end of the war". This path had been started under the first Badoglio government and had gone on in 1944 and 1945 with successive refinements (chiefly the replacement of the general elections with the election of a Constituent Assembly) under the CNL governments. If there had been no DLL of March 1946 the referendum would not have happened (it might however happen later on if the Constituent so decides); it would have been impossible however for the DLL of March 1946 to replace the election of the Constituent with a referendum.
The Titoists entered Trieste on 1st May 1945; New Zealand troops arrived one day later. After a stand off, an armistice line was negotiated on 9 June (the so-called Morgan Line). Trieste, Gorizia and Pola were handed over to the Wallies and Titoists retreated beyond the Morgan Line.
Lukedalton posited a better management of the armistice which would also result in both a shorter war in Italy and a better Italian position at the negotiation of the peace treaty.
There are a number of possibilities here:
- The Wallies occupy Trieste and Istria before the Titoists
- There is more pressure on Tito both from the west (who is supplying him ) or from Stalin (Tito is not yet ready for a break) to move toward Zagreb and Lubjana (they had not yet been liberated on 1st May) rather than going for a landgrab in Istria and Friuli
- Worse comes to worse, Italy gets the Morgan Line, Trieste and Pola at the peace treaty