Final Solution Successful

[Steffen]

Are we still assuming that the Axis lose the war? From that standpoint, it would be incredibly hard, no, impossible, to conceal an operation that brutal and wide-spread. For one thing, the Germans documented the war extensively. Even before the war, the rest of the world knew that the Nazis had it in for Jews. With all that propaganda before the actual conflict, what do the Allies think after they start picking up the pieces of Europe, and suddenly notice that eleven million people, strangely all Jews, are not accounted for? I`m sure there would be evidence of the Holocaust.

Now, if we are assuming that the Allies do still find out about the Holocaust, but Hitler was successful in his operation, that would create a very different history. The war crimes trials would still happen, but Israel most likely would not be founded. This would change Arab-American relations quite a bit. Facing down the barrel of the Soviet Union`s cannon of communism, they would probably stand behind the United States even more than they did. We might even be friends with some of those countries; with our backing of Israel non-existant. There probably wouldn`t be a "war on terror" going on right now. It may sound horrible, but a successful Holocaust probably means a much more stable Middle East.

Maybe I´m lighting my cigarette in a ammunition depot with this,

but I would doubt that the arab-american, arab- western situation would be changed much if we take the Israelis out of the equation.

Arab anger about their failure compared with the western world in science, culture, economics since the middle ages will make them look for another scapegoat. And don´t forget that bin ladens followers name thier enemies the jews (which are out) and the crusaders, he refers to long forgotten episodes like the christian reconquista of Andalusia as a tragedy, like if it happended last year.
So my point is: the Middle East Situation and the relations with the camel-herding world have their reason in the shortcomings of the arabian political/economical/social systems.
So the elimination or reduction of Israel wouldn´t change much.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Maybe I´m lighting my cigarette in a ammunition depot with this,

but I would doubt that the arab-american, arab- western situation would be changed much if we take the Israelis out of the equation.

Arab anger about their failure compared with the western world in science, culture, economics since the middle ages will make them look for another scapegoat. And don´t forget that bin ladens followers name thier enemies the jews (which are out) and the crusaders, he refers to long forgotten episodes like the christian reconquista of Andalusia as a tragedy, like if it happended last year.
So my point is: the Middle East Situation and the relations with the camel-herding world have their reason in the shortcomings of the arabian political/economical/social systems.
So the elimination or reduction of Israel wouldn´t change much.

What an absurd and offensive post. If you don't think there are real grievances behind the current Islamic rage then you need to educate yourself in world affairs and history. Since the Muslims have held Palestine for the last 1,400 years, they rightfully view their title to it as more legitimate than that of just about any European nation to their own territory. To have had a chunk of it, including what is considered a Holy City, torn away from them, without compensation, is not a grievance born of "Arab failure complex", nor is the quite true connection that a five-year old child, but apparently not you, can easily make between US support and the ability of corrupt and oppressive regimes like the Saudis to survive.

 

[Tetsu]

I agree completely. If you don`t think that at the VERY least, 80% of the Arab`s current grievances are based on the nation of Israel`s existance, you`re crazy. The United Nations kicked these people of their land of thousands of years, and expected them to be cheery? I`m definately not saying I condone the violence or intifadas, as there are much better ways to go about getting your homeland back, but it was to be expected. I still believe that a successful Holocaust would have butterflied Israel out of existance, and the world would probably be a much stabler place, as sad as it sounds.

 

[Steffen]

. If you don't think there are real grievances behind the current Islamic rage then you need to educate yourself in world affairs and history. Since the Muslims have held Palestine for the last 1,400 years, they rightfully view their title to it as more legitimate than that of just about any European nation to their own territory. To have had a chunk of it, including what is considered a Holy City, torn away from them, without compensation, is not a grievance born of "Arab failure complex", nor is the quite true connection that a five-year old child, but apparently not you, can easily make between US support and the ability of corrupt and oppressive regimes like the Saudis to survive.

Real grievances behind the current islamic rage? Of course they are there.

The economical growth of the countries falls behind the growth of population, the educational system, nearly everything what normally the state provides seems to be dysfunctional. I would say this leads to anger, especially if the region of the world with the un-islamic lifestyle does much better.


And between you, me, and the 5 year old child you mentionend, I think without the support of the US for the corrupt and oppressive regime of the House Saud it would be replaced by a corrupt and oppressive anti-western system.

 

[zoomar]

If people could get past Steffan's unfortunate and (probably deliberately offensive just to get a rise out of people) reference to camels, his substantive observations are correct and not offensive at all. They are the same observations made by moderate Arabic scholars today. The Islamic world fell into an asymmetric technological and cultural relationship with the west in the 16th-19th centuries because of the lack of an internal reformation in Islam and development of truly modern, rationalist, non-sexist secular governments. The region became subordinated to and dominated by western European states. Without Israel, arab and Islamic nationalism would still exist, and "80% of its rage" would probably be directed at some other supposedly egregious bit of western arrogance and exploitation - like the self serving partition of the Ottoman Empire among Britain and France after WW1 or US support of the house of Saud and other repressive regimes. Compared to modern European Protestantism and Catholicism, much of Islam is still mired in a 12th century world view shaped by the Crusader invasions, a judgemental and intolerant god, and jihadic responses. European Christianity got beyond this. Islam needs to as well or the arabic world will be a basket case 100 years from now even if ASBs suddenly removed all Europeans, Americans, Jews and Christians from the globe.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Amazing, all the problems in the Arab world and all the troubles on ever border between Arab and non-Arab nation, not to mention inter-Arab borders on so many occassions yet somehow 80% is the fault of Israel.

Iran-Iraq bloodbath, deprivation of Coptic Christian rights, disgraceful status of women, lack of basic freedoms, slave traders raiding Africans in the Sudan, yet somehow Israel's existance is the cause of it all.

How about this idea? To promote stability shall we make the argument that the Anglo-French decision to carve up the Ottoman Empire was a disastrous decision. Clearly had Israel never existed and the Arabs ruled as backward subjects of the Turks the region would be much more peaceful.

Heck, had the US maintained slavery I wager we wouldn't have such disputes over affirmative action and reparations but I'm not sure that such stability is a desirable state of affairs.

Certainly I had no use for the diplomats mourning the end of the Cold War, who apparently preferred the risk of nuclear war to having to actually start doing their jobs.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Others have said this before, but I feel that there is some validity to it. Islam needs its Luther. It needs to be reformed from within before it gains stability. It needs another Abd al-Qadir Jilani. The West simply isn't going to do it without help from within I might even go so far as to suggest that the Arab nations need to come to terms with their vernaculars before they can they can experience a renaissance in literacy and appreciation of their cultural heritage. Literacy in the Arab world depends upon an understanding of the classical language and is inextricably tied to Islam.

 

[Ian the Admin]

Maybe I´m lighting my cigarette in a ammunition depot with this,

but I would doubt that the arab-american, arab- western situation would be changed much if we take the Israelis out of the equation.

Arab anger about their failure compared with the western world in science, culture, economics since the middle ages will make them look for another scapegoat. And don´t forget that bin ladens followers name thier enemies the jews (which are out) and the crusaders, he refers to long forgotten episodes like the christian reconquista of Andalusia as a tragedy, like if it happended last year.

Two fundamental problems with this view:

1. The opinion of the man on the street in the Middle East is actually reasonably well known by those who care to check. Arabs don't "resent" the west since they "fell behind" (good grief, peoples' minds don't work that way in any nation and never have). They resent western - primarily US - political and military influence and intervention in the Middle East. Hardly an unfounded opinion given the conquest and colonialism of the region, followed by the many cold war and post-cold-war interventions. The Islamic fundamentalists, their version of the US religious right, view western culture as degenerate and evil and so forth but that is not a majority view.

2. Bin Laden is the extremist of extreme Arab hard right Islamic fundamentalism. He lists grievances going back hundreds of years but these are every bit as much excuses as western rightists who claim that Islam and the west have been engaged in an uninterrupted holy war since the first Jihads. Mainstream opinion in the Arab world couldn't care less what happened in Andalusia.

 

[Admiral Matt]

I think you are all over-complicating this.

The Middle-East has problems because there are a huge number of poor, childless, unmarried, unemployed young men, oppressed by their governments, who stand no chance of getting laid. Plus the weather sucks. That this has made some violently angry at the outside world shows only that the Arabs are perfectly normal people. Of course, all that oil has allowed a few rich nuts to fund said angry people, which is where we get the terrorist organizations.

In conclusion, what the Arabic world needs is sex, kids, money, and (if possible) snow.