Favorite Lost Cause?

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 18, 2004

Leo Caesius said:
You should check out Geoffrey Lewis' The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success.

Oh, I certainly have. It made me laugh, it made me cry. It's funny, growing up I always wondered why my mother and grandparents' Turkish sounded so attractive while everyone else's was so ugly; it wasn't until later that I realized this was because my peeps weren't speaking Turkish, they were speaking Ottoman. Now, my mother sounds like a character out of a period drama, since the language she learned is now dead.

Geoffrey Lewis also has an interesting essay in Imperial Legacy: The Ottoman Imprint on the Balkans and the Middle East about the impact of Ottoman on the languages of the Arab successor states that is very interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...103-9880533-2744647?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Anthony Appleyard · Feb 18, 2004

The Crusader states. If they had behaved more sensibly and persisted, they might have retaken the Middle East for Christianity.

A persisting Aztec Empire (without the human sacrifice).

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 18, 2004

Anthony Appleyard said:
The Crusader states. If they had behaved more sensibly and persisted, they might have retaken the Middle East for Christianity.

Until the Ottomans arrived and took it right back. HA ha.

Xen · Feb 18, 2004

Hmmm lost causes:

I also like the one where the Byzantine Empire survives.

I like first world Africa ones as well

The Russians able to beat off the British, French and Turks in the Crimean war and take Constantinople.

The Young Turks are able to create an Asian Empire made of southern Russia stretching into the Volvograd region and connecting to Kazakhstan, and the other stan's of the region including Afghanistan and Uighuristan.

A Jewish colony arises in Africa sometime in the nineteenth century.

Israel successfully overthrows Rome during one of its Rebellions. Rome Goes eastward and takes the cities of Nineveh and Babylon, restoring them to their former glory.

NapoleonXIV · Feb 18, 2004

Nudism as an accepted lifestyle and fashion in the modern world.

A commonsense view of human sexuality as a necessary and healthy bodily function rather than some sort of sacred act or the root of all evil.

The end of religion of any kind as a major factor in history.

Karlos · Feb 19, 2004

Well, some spanish lost causes:
-The Numancia siege. The arevacos, original inhabitants of the land the romans called Hispania, resisted for twenty years against the most powerfull army in the world. Escipion wiped them out. Legend says they killed all themselves better than surrending.
-The Granada califate. The muslims were much more advanced and literate than their christian counterparts at the time. Tolerance was high, and science very advanced. An islamic country in Spain could have been very interesting.

-Of course, the Republicans. Not the stalinists that took advantage of the situation, but the llegitimate governement of Spain in 1936. They were left to die by England, France and the USA, fought alone against fascism, and Stalin played with them for his own agenda. The allies left them alone again in 1945. Some say their's was the last romantic war in history. My granddad fought against Franco and was a POW in 1938.

wkwillis · Feb 19, 2004

The Newburgh Conspiracy

Sigh, if Thomas Paine had stayed in America instead of going home to England to overthrow the government, we would have had a democratic US in 1785! Think of it, no slavery, no restricted franchise, no obstacle to homesteading, etc.
Of course, that means no Napoleon since no French Revolution...

trendel13 · Feb 19, 2004

What about a true Native American nation in North America?

Flocculencio · Feb 19, 2004

The Anglo-Saxons defeating the Normans, uniting Scandinavia and the British Isles and going on to colonise Vinland

Faeelin · Feb 19, 2004

Karlos said:
Well, some spanish lost causes:
-The Granada califate. The muslims were much more advanced and literate than their christian counterparts at the time. Tolerance was high, and science very advanced. An islamic country in Spain could have been very interesting.

Bullshit. This was only true for the umayyads, and even their tolerance is overrated.

The almohads were a nightmare, in particular.

Not to say the Christians were all nice, but the Muslims get way too much slack.

Grey Wolf · Feb 19, 2004

Mazzini's Roman Republic

Edward IV living a longer life

A gradual reform of the Russian Empire rather than revolution

Grey Wolf

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 19, 2004

Faeelin said:
Bullshit. This was only true for the umayyads, and even their tolerance is overrated.

The almohads were a nightmare, in particular.

Not to say the Christians were all nice, but the Muslims get way too much slack.

Pish posh. The Almohades were around for all of 60 years, and are the exception that proves the rule. All in all, the Muslims were light years ahead of the Christians in tolerance and sophistication.

Faeelin · Feb 19, 2004

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Pish posh. The Almohades were around for all of 60 years, and are the exception that proves the rule. All in all, the Muslims were light years ahead of the Christians in tolerance and sophistication.

The obvious question is then why the Muslims were kicked out and reliant upon north africa for support.

Mind, it could just be me. I don't think laughing and mocking christian burials is that tolerant.

My counterexample: Norman Sicily.

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 19, 2004

Faeelin said:
The obvious question is then why the Muslims were kicked out and reliant upon north africa for support.

Mind, it could just be me. I don't think laughing and mocking christian burials is that tolerant.

My counterexample: Norman Sicily.

There's a difference between tolerance and sophisitication and military power. One might note that despite having ruled almost the entire peninsula, there are no Muslims in Spain (from that time). Why is that?

Norman Sicily is quite clearly a singular exception, and even then the "saracens" there were for the most part mercenaries.

Faeelin · Feb 19, 2004

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
There's a difference between tolerance and sophisitication and military power. One might note that despite having ruled almost the entire peninsula, there are no Muslims in Spain (from that time). Why is that?

Norman Sicily is quite clearly a singular exception, and even then the "saracens" there were for the most part mercenaries.

How many important christian swere there in al-andalus? Jews were high in the halls of power, but that was the case in places like languedoc.

David Howery · Feb 19, 2004

The moslems were indeed ahead of the Europeans in science and culture... for that time. However, the moslem culture stagnated, for some reason, and the rude intolerant Christians out of Europe ended up on top of the heap. There's a lot of reasons this happened, so to keep Al Andalus, you'll have to butterfly a lot of things in Europe too.....

Alois · Feb 20, 2004

The natives of the western hemisphere, Ausralia/Tasmania/New Zealand, and the African continent doing better at resisting European colonization.

Lady Jane Grey dying at a ripe old age, although that would possibly be a disaster for England's, and Europe's, politics. I worked out (vaguely, in my head) an ATL once where her reign, and the chaos of a Protestant vs. Catholic civil war, allowed Spain a freer hand in the Americas, resulting in the near total extermination of the native peoples by the mid twentieth century.

Leo Caesius · Feb 20, 2004

Alois said:
Lady Jane Grey dying at a ripe old age, although that would possibly be a disaster for England's, and Europe's, politics. I worked out (vaguely, in my head) an ATL once where her reign, and the chaos of a Protestant vs. Catholic civil war, allowed Spain a freer hand in the Americas, resulting in the near total extermination of the native peoples by the mid twentieth century.

I would have thought that an entirely Iberian New World would have been pretty heavily Native American. Look, for example, at South America... people used to describe Paraguay as a Spanish speaking country where Guarani was used in certain spheres. Now the description has flipped; it seems that 95% of Paraguayans are native speakers of Guarani, which is used in nearly every sphere of daily life in Paraguay, even though the official language is Spanish.

The Spaniards were more interested in converting the Native Americans to Catholicism than slaughtering them all. They may have destroyed the indigenous cultures, but the population of Latin and South America is still quite heavily indigenous.

zoomar · Feb 20, 2004

Mussolini's Italy, and Fascism in general uncontaminated by the virulent racism of Hitlerism

Alois · Feb 22, 2004

Leo Caesius said:
I would have thought that an entirely Iberian New World would have been pretty heavily Native American. Look, for example, at South America... people used to describe Paraguay as a Spanish speaking country where Guarani was used in certain spheres. Now the description has flipped; it seems that 95% of Paraguayans are native speakers of Guarani, which is used in nearly every sphere of daily life in Paraguay, even though the official language is Spanish.

The Spaniards were more interested in converting the Native Americans to Catholicism than slaughtering them all. They may have destroyed the indigenous cultures, but the population of Latin and South America is still quite heavily indigenous.

Thank you. One of the main reasons I joined here was to learn more history. I was thinking of the worst atrocities and presuming they would continue.