Favorite Lost Cause?

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Well, you still can go to Constantinople on holiday if you want to - it's still there, you know, it's just got a different name. All the buildings are still there.

You can even still call it Constantinople. Istanbul, as I understand it, is Ottoman for 'the city' or 'the city here' and is a sort of honoring of the name by not saying it, as it were.

At least that's what I've heard from one source. Others disagree that is meant as an honoring and a few disagree that the meaning is that at all. I always thought it a nice tradition, if it is so.
 
My favourite Lost Causes

My favourite Lost Causes are undoubtedly greater African-American advancement, esp re earlier racial integration of the US armed forces and more favourable conditions for black servicemen, but also with earlier effective progress on other civil rights issues like lynching; and more extended native American resistance to white colonisation. Hence, you can all see many of my threads on these areas. Good causes to fight for, aren't they ?
 
My favorite lost causes (in no particular order) are:

A more tolerant pagan-Christian-Jewish mode of coexistence developing in Antiquity (frex the Valentinianic model, Julian's state, or a world where Christianity develops into a following of theosebei - not fully converted Gentile synagogue hangers-on - and never catches on in maionstrweam paganism).

An printing-induiced 'value survival' at a point in history where a multipolar, religiously tolerant society is at its apogee (like in the pre-Seljuk days of Islam, Sung China, or the later Hellenistic or Roman eras, or maybe in India, though that society may not have been literate enough). Europe has had a rough time because its 'value survival point' is rooted at a time when division, conflict, and segregation were all the rage and purity counted.

Chinese or Indian development to rival Europe's. By 1700, China still had an economic output and productivoity second to none. 100 years later, it was falling back. What if not? (Yes, I know, Cheng He is sooooo 70s. I still like it)

The Revolutions of '30 and '48.

the Weimar Republic. I like Weimar Germany. I wish there had been some productive way of dealing with all that centrifugal force. For all the cozy consensus-based comforts of the FRG, it gets stuffy here.

The post-Assyrian Aramaic city culture of the Near East. What a cultural model to play with. Imagine if we had more of its literature (basically, we have the second-temple era books of Bible and what fragments survive in other cultures).

Hindu India. Mughal India, too, but to a lesser extent.

Socialism. I mean, real Socialism, not the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist nightmare it became after the doctrine of revolution as the only way split the movement.

A medieval Italian kingdom. Preferably based on a pre-Papal Lombard tradition.

The world of the mid- to later 19th century. I know you can't preserve a mindset. But sometimes I wish you could.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
carlton_bach said:
My favorite lost causes (in no particular order) are:

The post-Assyrian Aramaic city culture of the Near East. What a cultural model to play with. Imagine if we had more of its literature (basically, we have the second-temple era books of Bible and what fragments survive in other cultures).

You should consider reading the Ginza, Carlton. It is the chief religious text of the Mandaean community, the only surviving Gnostics from pagan antiquity, and the key to a really amazing and complicated cosmology. It is written in Mandaic (Aramaic) but there is a German translation by Lidzbarsky. Also, Ethel S. Drower's The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran might give you an idea of what a post-Assyrian Aramaic culture of the Near East might have looked like. Some of the Mandaeans still maintain their Aramaic dialect.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
NapoleonXIV said:
You can even still call it Constantinople. Istanbul, as I understand it, is Ottoman for 'the city' or 'the city here' and is a sort of honoring of the name by not saying it, as it were.

From what I've heard, the most likely candidate for an etymology is eis tin polin, "to the city," which is apparently what the fleeing Greeks called the way to Constantinople when they encountered the Turks on their way out. Others contend that the name is actually a corruption of Islampol, the "city of Islam" (which sounds a bit like an Islamic version of Interpol, what a chilling thought).

The Ottomans called the city Qostantiyya, but the name was changed officially to Istanbul in the early days of the Republic, IIRC.
 
My favorite lost causes follow. Some of them I like merely because they would create an "interesting" history - and we all know what the Chinese blessing/curse says about living in interesting times. Others I believe would actually have created a better, less horrible, 20thcentury.

(1) Muhammad converts to Judaism or Christianity rather than founds his own religion (actually impossible if you accept the story of Muhammad's revelation at face value, of course) Both an "interesting" possibility and one which could be good - too early to tell, results in...

(2) survival of Byzantium as unifying empire in eastern Mediterranean

(3) A Mesoamerican and/or Peruvian civilization survives initial Spanish contact/conquest attempt and becomes an indigenous American power, blending European and native cultural systems - "Interesting" mostly

(4) 15th Century Chinese, Japanese, or Indian regime adopts European industrial/military systems and retains independence and political clout through the 16th-20th century. Could be good or "interesting" depending on whether or not technological innovation accompanied by liberalizing political sensibilities.

(5) American British Colonists don't revolt or ARW fails - Britain gains hold over entire North American continent - both a possible good thing and "interesting"

(6) Britain accepts Napoleon's system on continent - Europe politically/economically united under Bonapartist system

(7) Confederacy wins ACW. Only "interesting" - I do not see how this could result in a better 19th-20th century

(8) Austria wins Austro-Prussian War and/or France wins Franco-Prussian War. Rise of militaristic Prussianized Germany forestalled.

(9) No WWI - no collapse of European (including Ottoman) colonial empires and ruling dynasties,gradual evolution/strenghening of democratic principles in context of conservative artistocratic monarchies. No rising to power of populist totalitarian regimes lie fascism and communism. If no WW1, then...

(10) Central Powers win early (say before 1916), is next best hope to save the 20th century from itself

(11) USA remains unmilitarized and isolatoinist thru most of 20th century

(12) USA continues to support manned and unmanned space exploration at at expanding level from the early mid-60's, and with clear vision
 
1) Succesful radical reconstruction. Land redistribution and massive Federal spending on former slaves' education.

2) Peace without Victors September 1917. Central powers admit starting war. Allies admit continuing it. Costs of war to be paid for by cutting military expenditure to 20% of Pre 1914 levels. Something like a strong UN founded.
 
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There are a number of worlds I would like to visit, even if not live there:
1) French Louisiana still French
2) Large Imperial Japan, including at least Hawaii and preferably West Coast
3) America still in British Empire
4) Either higher tech (so I can drool over our future) or lower tech (so I can feel superior)
5) A world with a significant population of anthropomorphic animals
You can probably look back over my posts and pick a few more :) .
 
Leo Caesius said:
From what I've heard, the most likely candidate for an etymology is eis tin polin, "to the city," which is apparently what the fleeing Greeks called the way to Constantinople when they encountered the Turks on their way out. Others contend that the name is actually a corruption of Islampol, the "city of Islam" (which sounds a bit like an Islamic version of Interpol, what a chilling thought).

The Ottomans called the city Qostantiyya, but the name was changed officially to Istanbul in the early days of the Republic, IIRC.

I don't buy th Eis tin polin explanation; I think that's the work of dilletante linguists, which have always been a dime a dozen. It's possible, I suppose, but the most likely source would be the numerous signposts pointing to the Constantinople around the Balkans and Anatolia, which read "To the city". However, I think it's just the way Anatolian peasants corrupted Konstantinopoulis. After all, illiterate Muslim peasants were unlikely to be able to read Greek. For example, Alexander becomes Iskender, etc.

In any case, the Ottomans called the city Konstantiniyye or Dersaadet (Abode of Felicity), although Murad III tried to ban the former. "Islambol" is a pun, meaning "Where Islam abounds", on "Istanbul", which in itself was used prior to the conquest. Mustafa Kemal chose Istanbul as the official name, because he felt it had the best "Turkish" pedigree, although his knowledge of linguistics was weak, although not in his own opinion, with tragic, catastrophic results for the Turkish language.
 
zoomar said:
My favorite lost causes follow. Some of them I like merely because they would create an "interesting" history - and we all know what the Chinese blessing/curse says about living in interesting times. Others I believe would actually have created a better, less horrible, 20thcentury.

Thank you for preserving the Ottoman Empire; that's becoming rare around here. ;) In any case, without Islam, we would probably be speaking Chinese by now, given the backwardness of Europe before Islam breathed new life into the Christian world.
 
My favorite lost causes:

1.
The Holy Roman Empire defends it´s western frontier against the French.
For example: After defeating the muslims at vienna,
Margrave Wilhelm von Baden and the Elector Max Emanuel of Bavaria whip the french army from Strasburg back to Paris.

2. the southern german states Baden, Württemberg, Bavaria and Saxony manage not to get absorbed into the Reich, thus sparing following generations having to deal with Prussian ambitions (Saupreissn!)
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Thank you for preserving the Ottoman Empire; that's becoming rare around here. ;) In any case, without Islam, we would probably be speaking Chinese by now, given the backwardness of Europe before Islam breathed new life into the Christian world.
Well, I like to save the Ottoman Empire, if my POD is after they take Constantinople. If its before, I'll either save the Byzantines or have them both survive.

And if Muhammed converted to Christianity or Judaism, that doesn't automatically lead to a backward Europe. After all, the Arab Christians could do pretty much the same thing as the Arab Muslims.
 
Ever hear the song "Istanbul was Constantinople"?
Why they changed it I can't say
Maybe they liked it better that way...
 
Istanbul (Not Constantinople)

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul not Constantinople
Been a long time gone
Old Constantinople's still has Turkish delight
On a moonlight night

Evr'y gal in Constantinople
Is a Miss-stanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it, I can't say
(People just liked it better that way)

Take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks'

Istanbul!!

Istanbul!!

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it, I can't say
(People just liked it better that way)

Take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks'

'stanbul!!

-Artists: The Four Lads
-peak Billboard position # 10 in 1953
-Words by Jimmy Kennedy and Music by Nat Simon
 
Ah, the lure of lost causes! :)

There's a few points in history I'd like to see changed:

1) The Danish King Valdemar II is never caught and ransomed by Black Henrik of Schwerin. Denmark would be THE dominant power in Northern Germany and in the Baltics for a looong time, if not forever.

2) A more, eh, lucky or perhaps just rational Danish King Christian IV. C IV enters the Thirty Years War with a better army and ends up the leader of the Protestant World...

3) And, strangely enough, a more French North America. Perhaps a Louisiana or Canada that is still French? Or a French USA?

4) Hmm, I'm gonna sound like a third rate Francophile, but a victorious Napoleon is also on my list. To be frank, I've allways liked the little fellow and think him better than his reputation.

5) Oh, and I too have a soft spot for the CSA (but not the insitution of slavery!!).

6) A surviving Byzantine Empire of some sort... Allways thought the culture and persons to be quite attractive somehow...

Best regards!

- Bluenote.
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
6) A surviving Byzantine Empire of some sort... Allways thought the culture and persons to be quite attractive somehow...

Attractive? More like repugnant, but I too am a fan of Enduring Byzantium - but the historical characters are pretty much all in the ""love to hate them" category, except maybe the final Constantine (XI).

Even John I Tzimiskes, possibly the most able of the emperors, achieved the throne through truly repugnant means - the brutal dismembering of his predecessor and subsequent betrayal of his mistress, the Empress.

Who do you like?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Mustafa Kemal chose Istanbul as the official name, because he felt it had the best "Turkish" pedigree, although his knowledge of linguistics was weak, although not in his own opinion, with tragic, catastrophic results for the Turkish language.

You should check out Geoffrey Lewis' The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success. It is the best linguistic read I've had in a while, abounding with the classically sardonic British humour. He waxes eloquently on Mustafa Kemal's raki sofrasi and the more ridiculous aspects of the TDK's "Ulusaldüttürü Turkish" ("ulusaldüttürü" supposedly being the TDK's Öztürkçe equivalent for Millî Marşı "National Anthem")

"Well, I like to save the Ottoman Empire, if my POD is after they take Constantinople. If its before, I'll either save the Byzantines or have them both survive."

IIRC, the Ottomans considered themselves to be the logical inheiritors of the Byzantine empire, and for a long time after the Fetih, both Greek and Ottoman were the official languages of their empire.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Attractive? More like repugnant (...)
Haha, we just have to disagree even if we see eye to eye, eh? But, ok, you might be right, Pasha. Let my refrase it then, I find Byzans strangely attractive in a weird kind of way... :)

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Who do you like?
Weeell, its more of a question who do I know about! ;) Constatine, Justinian too is quite remarkable (in a strange way, yes), general Belisarius, Theodora too, I should think, and the builder of the walls, eh, Theodosius(?) and Leo Something (the one who fought agaist the Arabs with some success).
As you might figure I'm not all that well read on Byzans (unfortunately). I think most people would mentioned some of these if asked who they knew (or liked)... ;)

Best regards!

- Bluenote.
 
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